When Self-Diagnosis Goes Wrong (And What the Data Actually Shows)

This podcast is brought to you by Open Door Mission, restoring hope and changing lives. OpenDoorMission.com. Welcome once again, ladies and gentlemen, to another edition of the Wise Home Energy Show, and here, the host for the most, Jeff Flaherty. Pure energy.

Hey, Bob. Hey. Thank you, thank you for having me back. Oh, please. Please, make yourself comfortable. I love this. This is one of my favorite, uh, days. Aw, what a nice thing to say. It is. It is.

Uh, I had the, uh, luxury of, uh, going to my godson's wedding, uh, recently up in Saratoga Springs. Oh, that's fantastic. It was, uh, it was a, a great wedding. Uh, congratulations to Brian and his beautiful bride, Amanda. And, uh, so I decided, uh, it... That's an expensive area up there, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so we went, we went the Airbnb route. Uh, you know, mom, uh, and siblings and, um, so I was in charge of getting this, and I got this one that had a view of the lake and, uh...

Um, so as I, as I meander around the home, I'm kind of an energy geek and I'm, and I, I look at things, I'm like, "The floor feels uneven," and, you know, "What's the era of this house?" And I sort of start researching the house and I'm like,

"Well, this is only like a 15-year-old home." And, uh, the decks were, uh, beautiful decks that, uh, you know, overlook this, uh, water. Well, the water was across the street. And then I, I noticed that there was plywood under the deck. So normally you have decking and the water would go underneath. So I'm, "Eh, I'm bored. I got a little time," and

I go underneath- ... and I, I start seeing these joists that are rotted out in 15 years. It was crazy. Uh, it was just crazy. And, and I thought, "Boy, people don't know, like, w- you know, where is this home gonna be soon? You know, this water management is not going well."

But, so inevitably, you know, temperature, uh, differences and, you know, different people want different temperatures and, and they want it up or down, and I go over to the thermostat and there was a sign on, the thermostat that said, uh, "Please turn down the air conditioner three degrees at a time.

Doing more than three degrees at a time will freeze the compressor, which takes 24 hours to unthaw, and you would have no air conditioning during the unthawing process." Twenty-four hours to un- what? Yeah. So I, uh, I had- Is that a... Is, uh, what, what is the, what's the temperature gradient up there? Yeah. I mean, water, uh, thaws pretty quickly usually. So I had to, uh, I had to go to a wedding, and it was a great wedding and, and so the next day we're packing up and I'm like, "I, I'm too curious.

I have to know more. I gotta... Let me pack this car and let me walk around the house and go find the condenser. I wanna know the size of the condenser." So I, I get my camera out, take some pictures, and it is a four-ton compressor, uh, with the house was, um, uh, I think it was like 1,700 square foot. And so I have some s- sort of base data and, uh, you know, like

I said, I'm a geek, so I come back to my, uh, office, uh, Monday morning- Of course ... and I, I look it up and, uh, I do a quick, you know, rudimentary calculation and, and it should be about 18, uh, thousand BTUs. So it's got an extra 30,000 BTUs, which typically means, uh, whoever sized it, it didn't get sized to the house and it probably didn't get sized to the ductwork. So y- there's an airflow problem.

Who know... Because the outdoor condenser didn't look like it had been cleaned in a while. Who knows where the furnace filter is? Those, you know, luckily for them, they lock the door, so I couldn't get to that access to-

But you tried. That's funny. So, um- Saratoga and you've g- you've got your tool kit out- Isn't that- ... and you're under the deck. Isn't that funny? I mean, it, it... But it was really... And, and so I just, I emailed them at the end and I said, "You know, the, the sink drains smell really bad, and it makes the kitchen sink smell." But I figured there's no sense in getting on. the technology. Go replace your air conditioner or right-size air conditioner. Why not? Could be, could be a whole new account for you. That's right. That's right.

Uh, but those are, those are some of the things I look at and you, can, you can co- you know, you can counteract that with just putting up the, sign. You can put the sign up and, and, and make it sound like it's the operator's error. It, it was, the operator's error, whoever operated the design-

... and install of the equipment, but it's not the person who's controlling the thermostat's fault. So... Reminds me of the film Meet the Parents. Remember? The, the, "Don't flush the toilet too much. Make sure you wiggle the handle and make sure that..." Remember? Yeah, I love that. Flooded, uh, Robert De, Niro's, uh- That's right? ... backyard in the basement. That's right. I love that show. That was, that was a great, uh, that was a great show. We had a, we had a client, there was a big flood, uh, water main break, uh, up in

Rochester, and we had a person call and, uh, uh... What a chipper voicemail. I felt bad for her. She said, "You know, I, I'd like you to come over. I know, it's late. I'd like you to... I'm leaving this, message, but I'd like, you to come over and, take a look at' my, my furnace." She, she said, "A- actually scratch that. I need, I need a new furnace. We were, part of the, um, area where the water. main broke." And so I, was out of town at the wedding and, uh, I hadn't really followed the news. I had seen it on, uh, a news app or something and, and so I started looking it up and cars had been flooded with this, this water. Must have risen quite a bit. It was on Monroe

Avenue, the flood. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, she had, uh, a... I don't know if it's 'cause it was a Bilco door or just that much groundwater, but five foot of water. And- Wow. Holy moly ... you know, I started researching. I'm, like, "Well, whose, whose responsibility is that?" And the city doesn't, um, uh, step in. They said they don't insure their water pipes or they're not responsible for their water pipes.

So it'll... Luckily she had homeowners insurance, and I' think that kicks in, but boy, what a, what a heartache that is. I mean, you, you don't, you don't think you're in a floodplain and suddenly you got five foot of water in your basement. Water and sewer authority maybe? Yeah. I've been this, uh, I've been this route before. I had a sewer backup at a house- Did you? ... a house on Canesus

Lake, and I got the same thing from the, uh, from the town. "Oh, we don't have any insurance for that." But we found out that the water and sewer authority does. Is that right? So you have to keep... Yeah, you have to be your own best advocate, whether it's your home or your health. When you're dealing with, uh, the medical community, you really have to Do your own research and, and try to push a little bit to get, uh, to get some solutions that are your favorite, 'cause it's easy to say no, right? They just say, "No, we're not covered." Right. That's, that's the first stop. Absolutely.

Yeah. It's, uh, it's, it's interesting out there, some of those, some of those little peccadilloes in, in a... You don't think of a home, uh, you know, having a, having a water, uh, break like that. We had a customer recently who, uh, uh, we went to go to their home, and they weren't home. We sorta knew them and, uh, uh, they... I asked our energy, uh, assessor, "Oh, what happened there?" And he goes, "Well, there's a sewer leak in the basement." I said, "Well, did the homeowner know it?"

And he said, "They left rubber boots at the top of the stairs for me-" Good Lord ... for me, to use. And I thought, "That's not respectful." That's, that's, you know, that don't, uh, don't... Fix your sewer leak before you have us out to do an energy audit, you know? So- Holy moly ... uh, but those are, those are some of the little, uh, you know, peccadilloes. We want you to prepare for a, for an energy audit. Uh, it's, it's something you're- You usually don't need to prepare with rubber boots, though. No, you shouldn't. You shouldn't. Uh, uh, it's, uh...

We had a gentleman, um, uh, call up recently and, and say that he wanted to, uh, insulate his basement ceiling because his floors are cold.

So that's self-diagnosis. That's not your thermal boundary. So one of the things we have to do when we come to a home is we have to define the thermal boundary, and sometimes what the homeowner wants and what the house is, or what the design professional can design, are not in alignment. So... And that's why we call them, we call them three-season rooms, right? Sometimes there's a room that we know, uh, we probably wanted it to be four seasons, but it just can't perform that fourth season. That's a telltale sign.

Uh, sometimes w- there's a door open that, or is no door to that three-season room, so that has to become a four-season room at that stage of the, uh, process. And so we have to define that thermal boundary and, and sometimes we wanna know, what the customer really wants to fix. So insulating that ceiling would now, separate your, uh, heating unit. It would now, separate your water pipe. So in theory, luckily there's heat down, there. All you're doing is stopping that heat from, from warming your floors. There's another issue in the home.

Uh, and so self-design, uh, self, self, uh, uh, diagnostics is, uh, it's something we all naturally do, but it's not something that, uh, is a good idea. We wanna defer to, uh, professionals and, and make sure they have the solution. I,

I went to another home that was a kind of a revisit. The gentleman didn't move forward with the project, and I said, "Hey, did you ever, did you ever move forward?" And he said,

"No. Uh, I'd be interested in revisiting it." And, uh, so I went out to the home and, uh, printed a bunch of documents from the, the previous tests, and he, he took me. around, and he wanted to do a lot of little things.

And, uh, he wanted to insulate the wall of his garage that was to the outdoors. So that, again, is not the thermal boundary. The thermal boundary is the garage ceiling and then the wall between the garage and the living space. So I said, "Well, you could do that. I don't, I don't know what? it'll do.

Probably won't do much because your concrete floor is, is not insulated, and your garage door is leaky, and, and the, space isn't really heated. So, um, you know, that, that probably is not gonna really do much. Uh, that's not something I would wanna do for you."

Uh, then he went to, a three-season room, and he said, "You know, I was, I wanted to get more. windows, better windows in this three-season room. If I warm up this wall and this room, this'll, this'll help with the comfort in the main house." And I said, "Well, it doesn't actually work like that. I mean, there might be a. little bit of, uh, gain in temperature in that space, but I, I couldn't see that making a, a big change in the home." And finally I just said, "Well, I didn't do the original audit." I said, "Let's review the, the data from your home." And I said, "Your blower door is 5,000

CFM50. Uh, doesn't mean much, but let's convert that to an air changes per hour. And your air changes per hour is 20 air changes per hour.

A new built home is, by code, three air changes per hour." And he, you know, was... You know, credit to him, he could do the math quickly. He said, "So my home is seven times as leaky as a new built home." And I said, "Yes, that's, that's correct." So that's where the doing the windows and doing the garage door, uh, it, it's not gonna do anything. It's not even gonna touch that air leakage. It, it was really kind of amazing and, and there were some other problems in the home. There was a crawl space that had been half insulated and, and you could tell it had some moisture issues. And so that's why we really, we start out, with an intake where we really wanna look at... We, we are doing an energy audit, but we wanna look at other things that you would like to fix in the home. And, and our- list is, is pretty straightforward, is, is cold drafts, air leaks, uh, AC heating system running constantly or, or, on and off too much, uneven temperatures, hot and cold rooms, uh, dry air if you have sore throats or static shocks, uh, dry skin, uh, high humidity. The other side of the fence is moisture on windows and mirrors, bad air quality, excessive outdoor noise, uh, pests that are in the home, uh, dusty homes. High energy bills is one of the things we're looking for, but it generally isn't the biggest mover to make people wanna upgrade their home.

Uh, ice, dam. Definitely a big one 'cause that can cause durability issues and, and more, more costly repairs like gutters tearing off your house. Uh, and then cold floors. And so we really wanna see, uh, that list, uh, filled out so we know, what we're going to, um, take care of in your home. And, because high energy bills is, uh, just something that e-even the state almost mandates us say, we can only say we're gonna save you 10 to 40% on your energy bills. So 10% is some moderate improvements, and 40% is, is probably more of a robust, uh, work scope where you're, you're doing a lot of things in the home. And, and it-it's tough when people have their, their mindset, uh, on what they're, what they're gonna wanna fix. So, uh, that's why we say get that list together, figure out what you wanna fix. And if you wanna stay, uh, in your home, uh, we can devise a plan to, uh, set up your goals to make it as comfortable as, uh, you'd like it to be. So- Although the things being equal is the blower door the first, like, a departure point for most people?

We-- Uh, well, we really want that test. Um, there, there are times when we, we don't... Um, we can't get it for a health and safety reason, but it, it really is such a critical test. Um, and people come into new build homes or 10 and 20-year-old homes, uh, people from other companies and say, "Ah, you're fine. What are you gonna do here? Your home's insulated."

Um, it is we match up what you're looking to correct, then we get the data and we say, "Does the data show that we can improve this and then improve these things?"

So if we go back to that Airbnb and we air seal and insulate that home, which I'm sure I could probably improve that, that's not gonna do much when the, when the heating system or the cooling system is, you know, over two or three times the size of what it's supposed to be. Uh, so it, it is kind of a comprehensive look at how all these parts come together.

Similar to getting new tires and the ride is, is rough. Uh, it could be struts, it could be, um, shocks, it could be an alignment. It could be a lot of things. It's a system that comes into play, and all we see is, is the, the four tires and making sure the air is in them, and it's, and it's much more than that. So, um, yeah. So as we, uh, as we always say, give us a call or text. It's 585-270-5836. Uh, Wise Home Energy has, uh, been in business for 15 years and we just wanna start with a 15-minute conversation, see what concerns you have in the home and see if we can come up with a plan to, to come out and diagnose that and then, you know, develop a plan that fits your budget to correct those, uh, issues in your home. Wise Home Energy, not necessarily an HVAC company, not necessarily, uh, an insulation company or a roofing company, but kind of like a home systems approach, which is, you know, the-- that's the informed way to attach-- attack all these situations.

Yeah. Absolutely. We, uh... I was giving a presentation, uh, I was down in New Jersey, uh, presenting to their, uh, energy, uh, program, it's called New Jersey Comfort Partners, uh, last week and, uh, it, it was really the focus of just looking at those, those extra things. There's a lot of extra things in a home that are outside the normal, uh, identification of, uh, just insulated walls, attics, basements. It, it's more than that.

Cantilever floors, uh, ductwork. in attics and unconditioned spaces. And I really kind of detailed how these things, similar to how we do on this show, is? that these things, if you miss these things, they are gonna cause such problems in your home.

And who's ever gonna come back and fix them? Now, you need the professional that can diagnose it, and you need the professional who can fix it. And so if that insulator or that HVAC person wasn't one of those people, you've lost faith in the system. You know, once, once we waste money on, on a problem, we're, we're very reluctant to go spend more money on the problem.

And, you know, I'm-- I've done it in my life, I'm sure many people have done it, where we've thrown money at a problem and it didn't solve the problem, and it's... We sort of give up on it. We sort of say, "I've already wasted money on this problem. Why would I waste any more problem-- uh, money on it? I'm just gonna have to live with it. That's the way it is." And, uh, we know that we can test, we can diagnose, and we have historical evidence that we can make these changes and we can improve these things in the home.

So that's, uh, that's really what we, we wanna do, uh, and get out- there and, and, and fix these things. That's our, that's our, that's our fun thing to do. And, and it, is, uh, it's at that time period where w-we wanna make these calls now. It, it, it's...

We're, we're gonna get there' soon where we're gonna get these calls saying, "You know, last winter I was cold. I'd like to fix it for this winter." And, and that's gonna be, a challenge because it's a process. It takes a little while to get out to the home to do the assessment.

It takes a little while to, to diagnose and, and design the correction for it. Um, we had a, a call recently where we, we probably told the client we're, we're, we're booked out a little bit. We're booked out, um, about six to eight weeks probably, and that, that's a typical, that's a typical bookout rate for us, uh, for insulation and HVAC is a, a little less and we keep some flexibility 'cause that's can, be more urgent. Uh, so we let them know, that it was gonna be a little farther out and, the call, um, we probably could have done better on the call and, and, maybe just found out a little bit more of what the client was looking for. But the client said they had moved all the stuff out of their attic

And they had had an AC put in and they wanted it re-insulated before they put their stuff back in. An AC in the attic. Well, that's what I think. I think we didn't ask enough questions, and that's what I'm pretty certain happened. And so I was looking at the call log and I, I think I have to call this person back because do they now know it needs insulation because now they're uncomfortable because they put the AC in? Do they already know? So just by cutting holes in your ceiling and putting ductwork in, these ducts leak. No, no one's very good at installing these things. Um, and we can measure how much they leak in a, in a cubic foot per minute.

And so whenever people tell me that there's ductwork in an attic, I get very concerned because it, it can cause mold, it can cause dust.

Air is leaking. When air travels, it carries moisture and energy, so it, it, it'll move the heat out of your home or' move it, back in, uh, during the cooling season. When the, when the AC isn't on, the heat is penetrating through those ducts. So I need to call this person up and just say, "Look it, we may not fit your timetable, but you wanna make sure these ducts are sealed, not visually, but from a testing standpoint." Somebody needs to test these ducts before you insulate. Because if you go and insulate this and these ducts leak, you are gonna have moisture and mold on your roof deck, and then after time, that's just gonna rot your roof out. It's not gonna take very long for that to happen. So, uh, so... And that's one of the things we wanna do is we may not be able to come out and do work at your home, but when you call us or' if you go to our website, hopefully you're gonna get enough information to make good decisions. You don't have to make that decision with us. We just want you to make a good decision for your home because nobody likes to waste money. And you're making me feel a little queasy here because WYSL is the home of attic ductwork. We've got it.

Yeah. It's, uh- Just for AC, but... Yeah. It's a thing. It's a... Yeah, and it's, um, it's, you know, sometimes, you know, they're installed phenomenal. Sometimes we just can't tell from a, a visual standpoint. So, uh, it's, it' just helps to do those tests and figure out what your, what your home needs.

Um, and it takes time. And, uh, I had a gentleman recently call me and, uh, sometimes they don't want the energy audit. They just wanted, uh, an insulation quote. Ironic because they've paid for it, yes? That's true. And we give them that offer, but sometimes speed, they don't really, they don't understand.

They don't know what it costs, so when they, when they hear rebate, they don't hear that they're gonna get a rebate. Like, who' would not want a rebate on something?

Um, so. we went out to the home and it was a Cape Cod, so we didn't do a blower door 'cause that's not what he wanted, and it's a, it's a robust work scope. Cape Cods are problems. They have massive problems. Really? And yeah, they, they just, uh... So, uh, he, he emailed back and he was, like, upset with the quote, and we even, we even kinda quote the rebate. We say, "You know, we, we could get you this rebate.

We'll have to pop back out." And he was really upset with it and said it was, you know, um, a ridiculous price to, uh, to insulate a home. And, and I responded and I said, "I wouldn't spend that. kind of money to insulate a home." I, I don't blame him. I wouldn't spend that. at' all. But if I wanted to fix the comfort of my second floor, if I wanted to stop ice dams, if I wanted to have a more durable roof, yeah, then that, that' price would make sense. But who would, who would spend money on insulation? That stuff is, it's stuff is, you know, stuff you don't see. Most of the stuff that people think about for insulation at the big box stores is itchy and made of glass. I wouldn't, I wouldn't pay money for that. But if I wanna solve a problem, um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pay for that. And the irony of, uh, it for me is the guy worked at a, um, like an HVAC company distributor. And I was, thinking,

"You know how. much that equipment costs that you're selling? And then do you know, how much the installer is taking it' and using his labor and, and marking it up?" And then, then we also have to. have profit. You know, if we're gonna, if we're gonna do work again next week, we're gonna have to make some profit this week to keep us in business. Um, so that's gonna be a, that's gonna be a costly piece of equipment you just sold. Like, who would pay for, who would pay for that. kind of money for heating and cooling? You could just get, uh, you could just load some wood in a fireplace, or you could get an electric baseboard or space heater. So it's sort of all relative what the, value of something is and, and, and if it means a lot to you. Uh, for some people it doesn't. Just wear some more sweaters and put on, some gloves and, some wool socks. And some people like it cool. I like it, I like it cool when I'm sleeping.

I do not- Mm-hmm. Yeah. ... I do not want that baking, baking, uh, room. So- I frequently get, uh, outvoted on' that, but- ... I, I like, it somewhere around 63. I... That? is a number that is, is in. my house. That is in my house everywhere. 63 is a number.

So it... When people ask me how my energy bills are, I sort of laugh because, uh, most people couldn't handle the temperature in my... And I don't have it' for energy, it's just that's the number that always seems to be sitting on' the thermostat.

Uh, but that's, that's the interesting thing is, it's, uh... And you? see that. in some of the, the bed manufacturers, right? The different temperatures, right? 'Cause we have those temperature differentials, so- The guy always says, "I like it cooler."

That's true. And th- that's, uh, that's a very astute product, I have to say, because boy is that a, is that a bone of contention from people. Yeah, it really is. I think they're, they're onto something. Yeah, that's a tough one when you're trying to set one temperature for more than one person. That's a, that's a hard thing to do, so-

Um, yeah, so just to recap Wise Home Energy, uh, you know, like we've said many a times on the-- on this show, is that we, we wanna educate people. Uh, not everybody is gonna be in our service area, so we, uh, certainly want to educate people on what they can look for in their home, what tests they're gonna want their contractor to do. If they're outside our service area or they can't, uh, wait for us to get to their home, make sure these tests are done. Make sure a Manual J load calculation for your equipment is completed. Make sure a blower door test is done. Um, when you climb-- when somebody climbs up into the attic and looks at that insulation, you can't just look at it. You have to pull it back and look underneath. If you see dirt, we know that air is moving through the living space and transferring up to the attic, so that's, that's an area that needs to be sealed. So, uh, we're, we're in the process of really revamping our website.

We expect it to, uh, be upgraded by the end of the year with a lot more information for people to really be able to, um, be their own best advocates when they're, when they're out there, uh, looking to make these upgrades. And the web address is?

Uh, that's wisehomeenergy.com. And, uh, and give us a call. These, uh, these no cost energy assessments are available. They're not all the same.

Um, I am sort of a zealot on the sizing of equipment. Um, and this is why we wanna upgrade our website, is we are starting to have a big challenge of going out to homes and people want three quotes, and the other two quotes, the equipment is much bigger than ours. So these are just, these are just heating and cooling equipment quotes.

Some people, that's all they want. They don't want the assessment. So we look at the home. We'll use our historical judgment. When we can, we'll get their utility bills and we can...

It w-- The other contractor is guessing. They're either replacing it with like for like size or, uh, they're just, they're guessing on what size it'll be and, and we're using more of an educated guess on what works for us. Uh- It's this size, so let's just make it this size plus 10%. Right. Yeah. They don't wanna be called on the coldest day of the year. I don't wanna be called 365 days a year.

I'm thinking of you yearlong. The voice of, uh, of wisdom when it comes to comfort in your home, from Wise Home Energy, Jeff Flaherty, and give them that all important phone number one more time. Sure. Call or text

585-270-5836. All right. And you've been listening to the Wise Home Energy Show. Get the podcast at wysl1040.com. A paid broadcast sponsored by Wise Home Energy. We'll see you next time