Ducts in the Attic, Vermiculite, and Why Oversized Furnaces Never Work

Well, it is time once again for the Wise Home Energy Show on the WYSL stations, 92.1 FM, 95.5 FM, West, and AM 1040. Pure energy.

And look at that. On cue, here's Jeff Flaherty from Wise Home Energy. Hey, Jeff. Hey, Bob. Thank you for that. introduction here. It's, uh... We're into fall already, so, uh, it's, uh, almost to that cold in your home time. Mm. Well, you got the chilly nights already, going on. I know. I love it. I kinda love that, like, flex time. where it's

70 in the day, 60 in the day, a little cold at, night. Mm-hmm. Good sleeping weather. Oh, yeah. Maybe a fire out front. Gonna get a little bit more of that here in the next month, and then guess what? Yeah. It's gonna be chilly all the time. I think they say that. The Farmer's Almanac is, uh, saying that, uh, it's gonna be a, a rough one, cold and snowy. Uh, I guess that's what we're used to. Well, I, I hate to say this, you know, in the shoe dropping department, but I think we, we're kind of up for it. I think it's kind of, like, our turn.

Yeah. I'm a b- I'm a believer of random sampling, and we've had a few, uh, we've had a few warm, uh, winters, so, uh, now maybe it's time to, uh, have the little cold winter. Yeah. Not much, not much snow last year. I think we only got, like, 40 or 50 inches. Yeah.

And our normal is 100. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, I bet you're right. I think, uh... I don't know much about the Farmer's Almanac, but I think Bob Savage is correct on the winter forecast. Well, we're... We have similar accuracy rates, I think,

Farmers. I think so. Yeah. I think so. You know, I, uh... R- recently we were, uh, in a home, um, with, uh, b- built in, uh, like, 2006. There's this complex here, uh, in the Rochester area, and, uh, they are cold in their home.

And, uh, we see these homes, they're, they're built on, uh... I don't know if we call them patio homes or slab homes, but they're one story, and, uh, they put the duct work in the attic. And, um, if you have listened to the show before, you hear that we might not be the biggest fan of duct work in the attic because ducts leak.

And, um, so as we've talked to the, in the past of those grant programs, we have, um, access to, uh, NYSERDA energy, uh, grants based off of income, and some people get discounted, um, measures installed. Some people can get no-cost measures installed. And this home, since it' was newer and seemed like it had good insulation, it's harder to get, um, our proposals approved.

And we had these two homes. They're uncomfortable. They've already replaced their furnaces. I think they were new to the homes even though they're, you know, 17 years old, and the furnaces, uh, at quick glance, are oversized. We would've never put that size in there, and the attics, uh, need air sealing. There's, uh, mouse trails and mouse, uh, feces up there, and the ducts leak, and it's not air sealed. And so we proposed, uh, this, uh, robust work scope, and, uh, it doesn't get approved, and the clients are unhappy, and they, they wanna change contractors. And it's kind of interesting. We, we, uh, at Wise

Home Energy, we have a philosophy of, of do the right thing or we shouldn't do it at all. And- So the procedure is you, you go up there and you do the evaluation, you do the survey. Right. And then that gets submitted to the state through to NYSERDA. Yeah.

Through a portal, whatever those portals are. I always say I don't fix portals, I fix homes. Um, and there's the, there's a cost calculation and a savings calculation, and if it doesn't meet that, um, it, it won't pass. And, and so now there's, um, there's contributions even for, uh, what? we' think are people that are gonna get no cost. So they might get some no-cost lights. They might get some other things, but we're seeing homes are, uh, uh, have had some type of treatment over the, over the years, so sometimes it. just does not hit this savings to, investment calculator. And so they have, um, the, uh... These clients have decided to move on and, and

I feel bad 'cause it's hard to sit there and brag and say, "This is who you' want in your home. You want Wise Home Energy in your home." We know how to treat this. We, um, have the diagnos-ostics to do this. So we'll do a blower door test, which we've talked about numerous times, where we're. measuring the air leakage in the home. But when we're doing that and we have duct work, uh, in the attic, we can, uh, create a, um, a seal on that duct, and we can see the pressure difference, and we can see how much it's leaking. Leaking ducts in an attic is really bad. It's bad for comfort. It's bad for energy. It's bad for, uh, moisture problems. And, um, these routinely, they usually always leak. It- it's just kind of a fact because people don't test. They're just guessing, and they're just installing to, "Hey, that looks pretty good." A lot of that duct work is, like, that foil type stuff. Yeah. Uh, it's- The flex type and- It's not, uh, it's not very robust, and it can very easily get rips in it. Yeah. And the electrician or the pest guy, uh, or somebody will go up in the attic, and it can get stepped on and crimped and, and so. it loses its performance, or it didn't have good performance in the beginning.

And, so these clients have moved on, and, uh, and, and, they... You know, we, we never billed a dime for this job, and, and, they're kind of upset with us, and, it's, it's a hard thing to, um, to deal with because we' know we have, the best solution. And, and then how do you tell them, "Hey, the furnace you already bought is the wrong size. It's going to, contribute to the comfort in your home. I can tell by the gas usage." We didn't do a full manual J calculation, but I can just experience sort of, sort of know that's what the issues are here.

And, and, and that kind of... It's frustrating, but we know how to fix those houses. It just depends if people want those homes fixed. If they want to be comfortable in their home, it's gonna take a diagnostic test, um, or many tests. There's numerous tests we do. And, and really how, uh, traveling back in time, uh, maybe 17 years, how I got into this industry is

I was working, uh, for, uh, Honeywell, um- Who had a contract with the state doing, uh, uh, managing their programs, and we were, uh, managing some contractors just like me. I had 20, 30 contractors, but I also had a responsibility, uh, one day a week to go out and do a third-party quality assurance on these jobs. And one of the jobs that really kinda altered my path in this, in this career is I went to a quality assurance visit, uh, on a home, near Erie Canal, where some of them were actually below the canal, and I walked in, and the lady had lived there for seven years, and her complaint, "I just have some paperwork," is that, "I've lived here seven years. Seven months ago, I, uh, had some work done and, and now I've been sick ever since, and I have this mold." And as

I went through the home, um, the contractor kinda had followed some of the prescriptive things to do in the home. "Oh, let's insulate. Let's change the furnace." But hadn't really thought of how the whole home comes together and some of the,

"Hey, let's do no harm." And, and there was roof leaks. There was water in the basement. And clearly the, uh, measures that were installed interfered with the existing conditions and kind of exacerbated a moisture problem in the home and single-pane windows, and now we had visible mold on, the windows or mold-like, uh, material. And I walked out of that home, uh, very new to the industry, and I, uh, had a responsibility where I couldn't say anything to the client. I wanted to say,

"You've got some issues here. You gotta, um, you know, get, these corrected." But my responsibility was just to report up the ladder, and never really found out, you know, the end result of that. But that, um, really kind of forged, uh, the philosophy of myself and of Wise Home Energy, that we wanna go into this home and maybe the client is focused here, here, here, "I need a new furnace. I need insulation."

But we have to make sure that we look at the whole home if they' allow us to and point out things that could, could create problems in the future. So you have this organization, this state organization, NYSERDA, and, uh, they've been around, I don't know, uh, for some time.

I, I think if they' don't already, or still rather, uh, they did own the, uh, the, the former Marriott hotel that's on, uh, in, in Geneva, right there at the, uh, at the head of the lake. I do not know, that. Yeah. Yeah.

NYSERDA was opera- the NYSERDA Inn or something like that. But anyway, d- did the... So your epiphany about, you know, helping people have a, ha- have a, a safer, more comfortable, more healthy home environment, did that correspond with the availability of some of these, uh, state programs to help people live better and warmer and- Yeah ... more comfortable? Absolutely. These, uh, programs that are still available today, if you have a electric, uh, utility bill from, um, any of the, uh, publicly regulated utilities, NYSEG, uh, National Grid, RG&E here, in, uh, Western New York, you're eligible to get, at the very least, a no-cost light assessment, which is, uh, you know, having a professional come into your home.

Um, they have a Building, uh, Performance Institute, uh, certification of, at the very least, a building analyst and, uh, analyze the home. So there, there's, numerous tasks, right? I mean, y- if you go to the, the, the... Your general practitioner, you know, you, you may not be, um, you know, getting the, uh, focus on a particular area that you might need a podiatrist or a, a specialist.

Um, so we, we kinda come in with that general, uh, view, and then I, uh, I myself and other people in the organization have more specialized certifications. And, and so what the, what the challenge is, is, that NYSERDA's goal is strictly to save energy, while the, the sci- the building science is to, to do no harm. So some things that might be good practice, installing bath fans, installing dehumidifiers, stopping bulk moisture from coming in the home, um, gutters and, drainage and, and grading, they're not really gonna have energy, savings, so they don't really qualify in the program. So you, have to kinda... You have to be, uh, the all-encompassing consultant when we go to these homes and, and let people know that some things may be qualified, but some things might not be. And if you want a well-performing house or, um, you wanna, you wanna look at the whole thing.

And it's also important to note here that the, this NYSERDA. program is something that, you've already paid for, with, uh, with, uh, um... It's a line item on your power bill. Hundred percent. Yeah. It's really... And people always are, are shocked. I, uh, "There's no such thing as free. I'm not getting a free energy audit." Yeah, you're right. You already paid for it, so you might as well sign up and- Might as f- don't, don't be shy about taking advantage of it ... and get it.

And, um, so for the, uh, the, for the income-qualified, there's two income qualification categories. They'll get the advanced testing with a blower door test. And, and I, I'm somewhat frustrated in the industry 'cause many contractors, um, uh, look for reasons to not do a blower door, and there are legitimate reasons to not do one, but it's a serious diagnostic test. And if you had a challenge in your, uh, physical, uh, health and you were offered a, a no-cost MRI and somebody told you you didn't need it, "Uh, you don't need that. You're aging home," um, that's a disservice. So I, I always try to challenge, um, clients, homeowners, and, and contractors to, to, to do that blower door, uh, to get that number. It's similar to going to the doctor when you're getting your blood pressure, your weight, uh, your height. Those things, are, all being recorded, and then they're a baseline. Then we know where we're starting from, and we can, uh, make, uh, recommendations and improvements from there, and then we can remeasure and see the, improvement.

So- So that's what you, that's what you started doing, what, uh, probably what, 10, 12 years, ago? So yeah, we started Wise Home Energy, or. I myself started Wise Home. Energy in, uh, 2010 and, um, you know, continued on that education. I quickly realized there's a lot more to this. than, oh, let's put some insulation in and let's put some, uh, furnaces in. And so, um, looking at the, uh, Building Performance Institute, um, w- I have the analyst certification, which is. the kind of that general overall certification to, to look at a home, to test, uh, mechanicals in the home, to do a blower door test. And that's kind of the starting point, right? Yeah. Usually. That's, that's the, uh, uh, th- that's the first step of choice- That's- ... is the blower door ... that's what we' wanna do. Yeah. We, we, we, we encourage people to do it. Um, we don't do it for free. You know, I, I always say that in 13 years and over 3,000 jobs, everybody I've met, um, you know, loving our service, no one's ever offered to come to my home.

and give me anything for free. Now we' have had some free donuts and cookies. I don't wanna d- you know, discourage those people that give us, uh, you know, some treats, but no one's ever come to my house, and that's why we can't. This is a lot of d- uh, technology and equipment and knowledge, so we do have to charge for it. So we either need to charge NYSERDA or we need to charge the end client.

And, um, you know, we keep, uh... The, the next BPI certification is, uh, envelope. So you, we, we can, look at the exterior of the shell, but we also can, um, start looking at how connected is it' to the garage.

Those are giant problems. We hear this from even, um, two-year-old homes, the room over the garage. Well, we can guess on that or we can pull out the blower door and, we can test.

and kind of show you why there's this problem. So that kind of falls under the envelope, uh, certification. Uh, there's a BPI heating certification we have, uh, BPI multifamily, and, uh, also a BPI manufactured home. So I list all those. Those have been around for a long time. And then, um, a certification that, uh, I just acquired and others in the company will be acquiring is, a healthy home evaluator.

Let me back up for a minute. What's BPI stand for? So it's- the Building Performance Institute. Ah, okay. And- it, it' really, um, you know, it' emanated out of the fact that, uh, you can, um, you can m- make... You can do harm by adding, uh, uh, something to a home or taking something away without looking at how it's gonna interact with other things in the home. And, and, and really this, this whole healthy home evaluator is, is moving to the next step where Wise Home Energy really already is, is, um, we're already testing indoor air quality. Now we're, now we're looking at, well, what are the sources of the problems in the home? And it's more than just, um, insulation and, uh, HVAC. Right. There's other things we have to consider. What you're bringing in the home, how you're using the home, what paths are entering the home. Uh, so all these things, um, fall into, uh, that kind of that whole home, um, diagnostic. And, and really the same thing, you know, we think about it, the way I always do the analogy of a human, it's like you can go to the doctor and they can give you all the prescriptions and, um, but, but there's the things that we need to do that help improve our chances, right? We can, we can eat a little better, we can get some good sleep. We can, uh, you know, make sure we're getting some exercise or walking in so that, um, there, there is no magic pill, uh, for the human and, and for the house that'll automatically put you in a, in a better path. I think the, uh, term is holistic, meaning the whole, the whole thing, the whole enchilada. That is it. And, uh, you know, you, you don't wanna try to just, I don't know, throw solutions against the wall and see if they work. Like, "Okay, let... You know what? Let's try putting in a bigger furnace.

Uh, you know what? Let's, uh, just replace all the windows in the house." Those things, a- as, as you mentioned a few minutes ago, could actually make the situation worse. Yeah. It really... And we see that all the time. And these are newer furnaces, and once you get a high-efficiency furnace in there, the incentives to replace that are nonexistent because the, the utilities and NYSERDA have said it's already high efficient. You're probably gonna swap it with a high-efficiency unit. And so either through lack of education of the contractor or to the client, we see these oversized units and we, we have to remember that when we size a furnace, we're sizing it for the coldest day of the year, the five-degree day. How often is it five degrees here?

So it's, it's very limited, a few days a year, and maybe only a few hours on those days. And worst case, you know, uh, what you could do is just plug in an electric space heater to supplement that. But so we're, we're finding that they're never too small.

They're u- they're 90% of the time they're too big. That's interesting. And what happens is we think of insulation and, and even air sealing, uh, tightening up the home, but if the heating unit pops on so fast and furious, uh, that it heats up that thermostat and shuts off, the walls never get to really warm up and the, and the, and the items in the home don't get to warm up. Interesting. It just can warm up that little sensor in the thermostat and say, "I'm warm." And so people call and say, "Well, my thermostat says this, but I'm uncomfortable."

Absolutely. You know, and, uh- 'Cause everything around you is cold. Right. And so it's, um... And it's hard to explain that to people. Um, and we can't, again, come out and do a manual J calculation, which is a, um, a really, um, um, computer model of all the surfaces in the home, uh, the insulation levels, the window ratings. Uh, and then we want that air leakage number. We want that blower door number to put that in because that number can be It can be five times difference. You could have 1,000 blower door, and in that same style home, you could have a 5,000 blower door, depending on what construction or poor construction has been done on the home.

And it, it's, it's really... Unfortunately, I wish we had more of us at Wise Home Energy because we, we have a, a tried and true process of how to go in and diagnose these homes and fix them. Uh, it takes time. It's... The diagnostics takes time, the approval to, um, get any state or, um, utility grants take time, and then once that happens, then we're usually booked out a little bit 'cause we're, um, uh, you know, quite good at what we do, so people sign up and, and want us to fix their home. So it does take a little time. It is a capital improvement, but if you're gonna live in your home for an extended period of time and you're not bolting out the door, uh, uh, moving, uh, flying to Florida, then it... we think it's a, a worthwhile investment even if you're gonna sell a few years down the road. You're listening to the Wise Home Energy Show on the WYSL station. It's Jeff Flaherty in studio, uh, with our regular periodic program here. Let's tell them, Wise Home Energy, how to contact you. Sure. It's 585-270-5836, and, uh, you can call or text that number. And then we also have the website, which is, has tons of information on it, and you can kind of, uh, do a little research on your own about what grants are available and how the process works, and that's wisehomeenergy.com. But typically, the departure point is a blower door test on, uh, a prospect's house. That's, that's one of the tests that we certainly love to do. Yeah. It's, um...

You know, I like to say that I would say we have the most blower doors, uh, maybe if it wouldn't be... Would it be per capita at Wise Home Energy, or per, uh, employee or team member? Um- A lot of blower door tests. We have a lot of blower doors. Yeah.

We, uh, we make a little tree out of them at Christmas time. And yeah. Um, and a little... The three wise men show up. There's a little Christmas pun, but, uh- Three, three wise guys with- Three wise guys ... four blower doors. Yeah. That's right. Exactly. A- okay. So, uh, and what that consists of is you put this thing in the front door.

Put this thing in the front door. We're just opening up your door. The screen door gets opened. Uh, there's a, a shroud and an expandable frame, and we, we put that in the door. Um, we turn off, um, uh, combustion appliances. We cannot have furnaces and hot water tanks firing during this test. It's very unsafe.

We don't want any exhaust fans because it's, it's gonna depressurize the home, so we don't want fans or bath fans and dryers working against it. And excuse me, we cannot have, um, fireplaces burned within 24 hours. We want the ashes clean.

So it's, it's putting a 20 mile per hour wind on the house. Um, it's, it's a really neat test. We encourage people to walk around with us. They may not wanna climb in their attic, but as you open and close doors and you feel the wind, uh, really between that door and that door jamb as you open it, you can kinda say, "Wow, there's a lot of air that's, that's coming from that room."

And it can be, it can be a little, um, um, uh, misdirective because that room could have something connected to it. So you might open the room and it might have a, oh, attic, hatch that's loose.

It might be a bathroom with, uh, some sewer stacks that are connected to the plumbing underneath the sink. Um, it could have, uh, some duct work that's disconnected in the crawl space. It can be misleading. It's not as simple as turn it on, get your number, and, and run away. We still have to use our, uh, most important tool of the energy audit is our, is our brains and, and our experience in, in looking at what's going on in the home and what can fix it.

Uh, typically, how long does that take? So the, the energy assessment we usually say takes on an average house two to three hours. The a- the actual blower door test, um, takes maybe 30 minutes to an hour. We, we have to do some prechecks. We need to go up in the attic, make sure there's, um, nothing that's, uh, harmful. So, uh, one particular insulation that was used, uh, in the '70s and '80s is called vermiculite. There's nothing wrong with vermiculite, but the majority of vermiculite insulation was, um, sourced out of a mine in Libby, Montana, and, and that mine was contaminated with asbestos. Yeah. Oh. So when we go in the attic and we see vermiculite, we cannot do the blower door at that stage. Ah. And we refer them to, uh, um... There is a program for, uh, called Zonolite was the manufacturer, and then they.

had some, uh, who knew they' private labeled, uh, asbestos or, uh, vermiculite I should say. So there is a, uh, there is a, an, uh, trust, uh, that, uh, helps pay for the remediation or re-insulation of, uh, homes- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... treated with vermiculite. Yeah. That's not a happy day if you learn you got it. Didn't they use it for plants? Well, it's, great. It' still works. You'll see it in brand-new little fireplaces 'cause it's, um, it's kinda like an exploded rock. It's been heated, so it can't burn.

Uh-huh. It can't... Um, so it's a great product. It just happened to, come from this... Most of it came from this mine back when... '70s and, '80s, uh, in Libby, Montana.

So, um, so it's... It... What frustrates me. and, and, with the, the real estate market and, um, maybe there's no inspections, but sometimes people just buy these brand-new, or you know, home to them, brand new to them, and, we go in and we, uh, open up the attic and we're like, "Did anybody tell you about the vermiculite in here?" Um, it's not the end all be all that you gotta run for your life, but we think it' was a piece of information that, uh, a home buyer should have known. Mm.

And, and, you know, uh, at least then they can make the educated decision to buy that home. And, uh, the mentality is leave it in place. Don't touch it. Um- Kinda like asbestos. If you don't, you don't bother it, it's- Yeah Leave it in place. Don't climb up in your attic. Don't store stuff in your attic and, um, you know, hopefully it, uh, you know, just stays where it is, or you can look at remediating it. But it is, it is a legitimate concern, and that's part of the, you know, blower door process is doing that prep work, uh, going through the home and inspecting and, and we can still miss it. I mean, it can be underneath fiberglass.

Um, it, it's not uncommon. People will find a stray bag and put it in their house in the, in the strangest of places. But, um, but for the most part... And I don't think it's the end all be all.

Um, uh, you know, a little exposure to it is not gonna, uh, not gonna cause the problems that they're, they're telling you on the, the TV commercials. Okay. So after you've done the, uh, pressure test, uh, what's the next step? So from there, um, we wanna say, well, how does that compare to the square footage of the home? There's a couple different, um, calculations we can do. So there's air changes per hour, which is volume, um, and we'll calculate that. The new code is three air changes per hour.

Uh, it's been that way for about seven years. We wanna compare it to a new build home. Um, but there's other, uh, calculations we can do. How does it compare to the square footage of the home? Um, a quick simple test, is we want a blower door to be one-to-one ratio of a, a square footage of the home. So if it's 1,000 square foot, we'd like to be around 1,000.

Um, uh, another calculation that is pretty neat is the square footage of the exposed thermal envelope. So that's not gonna be so much the basement.

That's gonna be the walls and, the ceiling, and you calculate that, and you really have a calculation of a leakage rate per square footage of thermal envelope.

It's kinda boring. I'm not trying to bore people, but it is a, it's a legitimate calculation. Well, it was. And we wanna look at all three of those calculations. Yeah. It's a process, and it's important to understand that the... if you really wanna be, you know, warm in your home in the winter, wanna be cool and comfortable in, in the summer, uh, that there's a scientific process behind this. It's not just,

"Oh, I think I need a bigger air conditioner," or, "I think I need new windows." Right. Uh, 'cause you wanna do this right because doing, it wrong is expensive and frustrating. It really is, and like you said, if you get a bigger air conditioner, it's not gonna dehumidify. Um, it'll dehumidify a touch, and then it'll turn off, so it'll be cool and clammy.

Now you gotta add, uh, dehumidification if it's not a right size. So that, those are some of the challenges that people call up and say, "I just want an AC. I just want a furnace."

Okay. What size? Who, who des- who designs the specifications? If we do, we have to charge for it. If you do it, then, then it's your design and, you know, if it's not, if it's, if it's safe, we'll install it to your specifications. If it's unsafe, um, we're gonna pass on it. But we can't, um, just donate free consultation time 'cause there's people that want to fix their homes. So we have to do those extra tests. More than ever these days, your home is a huge investment. With the real estate prices being what they are, with the mortgage rates what they are, you wanna make sure that you are, uh, uh, that you're comfortable in your home. You'll be warm in your home, as we say at, uh, Wise

Home Energy, don't be cold in your home. Uh, and there's a lot of factors that go into that. It's more than just, you know, where you set that little dial on the wall. It really is. It really is.

And, um, you know, that's why we, we spend so much on training. We wanna make sure our people know how to go into these homes and fix them. Uh, diagnose them and fix them. All right. So you are booking, uh, you know, blower door appointments and, uh, evaluations.

Absolutely. Yeah. We're, uh, covering Western New York. It's 585-270-5836, wisehomeenergy.com. All right. Jeff Flaherty from Wise Home

Energy. Thanks for being us on the Wise Home Energy show. Well, it's a good thing that we found you because we have this Wise Home Energy show, and now we've found Wise Home Energy to host it, so that's a very lucky stroke. Hey, see you next time on the program. Thanks for listening to WYSL.

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