Ice Dams, Insulation Myths, and Knowing When to Walk Away

This podcast is brought to you by Open Door Mission, restoring hope and changing lives. opendoormission.com. Why, if I'm not mistaken, I think it's time once again for the Wise Home Energy Show.

Pure energy. Well, yeah, I guess I'm right. Uh, yeah, it's the Voice of Liberty, and in studio, none other than that guy you've been clamoring for, Major Domo, Jeff Flaherty.

Bob, what an unbelievably wise introduction you just had. I appreciate that. Wise, like Wise Home Energy. I get it. That's right. That's right. We're always here answering your whys on, the Wise Home Energy Show.

Good thing we got somebody to do it. Right. Needs to be done. That's right. A lot of challenges in the energy world, right? We see, uh, a lot of these stories online.

Crazy people, uh, very political. Uh, yeah. You wonder about these data centers and how. much, uh, usage they're gonna have. They're gonna- And some people... Nobody wants them in their, uh, neighborhood.

Yeah. They're gonna, uh, consume prodigious amounts of energy. I would be in charge, uh, in favor, rather, of, uh, of having those things around because that's gonna, that's gonna keep your electric bill from skyrocketing even more. Yeah, you' think so? I... Oh, yeah. Okay. Because of there's capacity, you know?

Yeah. Okay. That's what, that's, that's what the issue is, there's scarcity in energy. and- Yes ... supply and demand, you know, the lower the supply. That' is the key, and you hear all these kind of debates. Some people are pro-nuclear, some people are anti and, and where. And y- you never really get down to the, the brass tacks of what we' used last year.

No one. digs deep into that' data of and what we're gonna need next year. And, and things can change very quickly with data centers. It seemed like a few years ago, it was the bit mining. Those things were churning, uh, out lots of, uh, using lots of, uh, power and energy. So, um, one of the, uh, things I wanted to mention, we always talk about all the rebate programs that are available and it, it appears that the

RG&E, uh, insulation rebate has, uh, run out of funds. The last, uh, email I got said you can continue to enter, uh, these, uh, approvals or requests for approvals, but you will, uh, uh, it's unlikely will get funded unless somebody cancels and doesn't do their other job.

So one of those things as a end use contractor, we never really know when the funds will run out. They don't give you the clock saying, "Hey, February of 2027 is when we presume."

It's usually more like, "Hey, guess what? Yesterday we ran out of money." Oh, yeah. Um, so there are, there is, uh, the New York State, uh, NYSERDA has the Comfort Home Program. So there is that rebate, uh, but it's always difficult to meander these ever-changing programs. And that's why we always advise people, is, uh, don't, don't wait.

Um, you know, you're... If you're betting on the, the rebate getting better, that, that's a tough bet. Maybe it will in a few years, but, um, take what you can get and, um, see, see what, uh, your home needs and, and you can fix it. Um- In the meantime, if they' have. any questions, I'm sure they' can pick up the phone and- They' can call ... and call. 585-270-5836. We take calls or, texts there.

Uh, you can visit our website. Uh, our website is constantly being updated, but one of, the things that' we've, uh, really rolled out is, um, really a, pricing calculator.

A lot of these things, uh, you're nev- you're only gonna do once in your life. So? people don't know? what, these things cost. If you go to buy a car, you can go online and- you can really dial down what a car is gonna cost. A little more difficult for things like insulation, uh,

HVAC. So, uh, so we've really tried to, to make that a, a seamless process where. you can figure out what your home needs, uh, punch in a few data points and, and, uh, get a price. And, and then you can start figuring out if that's something you wanna do. Now, one of the, challenges is, uh, self, uh, self diagnostics, uh, is, is one of the challenges. I had a, a gentleman come through the other day, um, I think he heard about us right on this radio show, but he wanted a remote energy audit or a remote assessment, and that's fine. We can do that.

Um, he sent in- But no- knowing what you do when you go on site, how is that possible? Well, it's experience of, uh, the auditor, typically more myself, is gonna review that and, uh, uh, we can give you some serious ballparks of, of what's, what's it's gonna take to fix your home based on the conditions that we see and the age of the home and the building, um, components of that day.

Uh, this, uh, particular client said that he had an addition that wasn't heating properly and there was a duct going to it, and he th- sent us like three pictures and said that he wants to get more heat to this room and... But there was no pictures of the room. We don't really understand. I said, "Well, what's underneath the room?"

And he said that it was, uh, he had insulated it. He put some fiberglass un- under there. And, and, and that's one of the challenges of, uh, doing this work or, or e- even, even other contractors. I was gonna say

DIY is you can, you can install something, but if it doesn't work, how do you know it doesn't work? As you install it, you won't know it. It would be similar to a boat, if you had a boat with a bunch of holes in it and you said, "There I, there

I patched it," the test is whether it floats. So - Yeah ... um, so- Important. Yeah. And, and so that's the metric we're looking for is really how it, how it performs, and clearly s- there's two components to making a comfortable room really is the insulation and air sealing of that room, uh, how tight it is and how thermally, um, robust it is performing, and then-

What we want to add to heat or cool it and how much we need to add. So those are the two components. That's a little more difficult to, you know, examine remotely. So I don't know if that'll go anywhere. Some people maybe don't want us to go into their home, but that's where the more of the detailed assessment comes into play and picking the right contractor.

We had a call, so this past winter in this climate zone, we had a lot of ice issues. And so we had a client call up who we did work for a couple years ago, and he said, "Hey, I got some ice."

And, you know, we don't guarantee that there'll be no ice, but he goes, "You know, I thought this would resolve the problem." So I said, "Well, send us some pictures of what you see. We want to see the roof." And I looked at the data on the Cape Cod, and we started out with a 3,400 blower door, and we finished up around 1,600. I'm giving you rough numbers. Cut it over half. This is, by all accounts, that's a huge, successful Cape Cod completion.

His Cape Cod, there's kind of the normal square Cape Cod. This one had these offshoots. I don't know if there's a name for them, but they have some gable roof. Sometimes they put them in the front. Sometimes they put them in the back, and this gentleman had two of them. And he, so he sent some great pictures during the winter of some melt spots, and I said,

"Well, something doesn't look right there. I will come out and investigate." And I did, and it looked like we were doing some blind... Some areas we have to insulate blindly, and usually we're looking for about 95% to 98% coverage because it's completely blind without ripping walls and ceilings down. So what got your attention? Was it the dormers that- It was at the top of the home, which we affectionately call the devil's triangle.

He had a great picture of some frost, and it was missing a lot of frost right in the middle. And when I went out to the home, it's sort of right where the staircase comes down. And so we're in the little knee walls, the little, the side attics, and we're insulating up that slope blindly and not sure what happened. Because it was a staircase, it was a longer area. And then when I was standing in the living space,

I looked up, and these '50s era Cape Cods or ranches sometimes have these square lights that are just indicative of that time frame and-

They're like pocket lights in the ceiling? A little bit. Yeah, they're a little bit up, and then the glass pops down. I popped down the glass, and it was loosely cut about a half inch all the way around. And what I couldn't see is where our insulation should have made it to, and it didn't make it there. So this is two years ago, but this was, this was within our work scope. I mean, if it was some other area we didn't touch,

I wouldn't be able to help them. But this, hey, we're gonna fix this. We missed something here. We'll be back. And so we, we went back recently, took care of it, and we redid that blower door, and we ended up getting another 100 CFM out of it. So 100 isn't, can not sound like a ton in regards to big numbers like this.

But the hope is that this is gonna be the fix, and he doesn't have to go pay somebody else to do it. This is, you know, we back our work. You know, even though it was two years ago, if it's something we missed, we're gonna, we're gonna go take care of it.

And it's funny, we get strange calls. We put in a hot water tank, and the client said, "Well, my toilet won't flush now." And we said, "Well, that's probably unrelated unless we shut off a shut-off." To hot water, yeah. Yeah, it's cold water versus hot water. And, you know, I think their float on their toilet just happened to go coincidentally at the same time. And, you know, sometimes you, because someone was in your home, the last person was in your home, anything that fails afterwards the next week or two becomes that person's responsibility.

But we had one recently where a lady or a gentleman or a couple called in, emailed in and said they wanted an insulation quote.

This was last year, and I said, "Well, what are you looking for? You got problems here? Okay, I can give you some ballparks. We've already had quotes." I said, "Well, I'll give you some ballparks over the email."

And I remember they responded and said, "This is twice as much as the competitors." And I wanted to say, "Okay, go with them. You'll call me in two to five years if you really want it fixed."

So we ended up going out there. I said, "Well, we should go out and do an inspection." And when we went out, I was talking to my rep, and he, he, we didn't do a blower door because there was mold-like substance in the attic that they were well aware of.

And so typically when we see that, we have two unvented bath fans. It's, there's two reasons moisture is in an attic. It's a roof leak. I guess there's a third reason. You could have a plumbing leak if you have plumbing pipes up there.

But it's either a roof leak or it's the ambient air in your living space carries the moisture up through the penetrations and then condenses up in the attic. So with two unvented bath fans and an un-air-sealed attic, we reasonably could presume those are the reasons.

And so we recommend our normal... This is 16 inches of blown fiberglass. We recommend to pull it all out and start from scratch, and, and they did not want to do that. They did not want that removal, which is, that's the best option. You are now cutting down-

The results by not choosing the best option, so- Yeah, isn't that, isn't that insulation full of mold spores and stuff? Yeah, it would, it would have some stuff, and we have to dig through it. Now, you're not talking big attics. This is a '60s colonial, so the pitch isn't great. Um, we have some skylights in there.

Uh, so they sort of wanted to pick and choose, uh, you know, off the à la carte, I guess a couple small plates if it was a dinner. And, uh, we, uh, went and did the work in the middle of winter, and then somewhere, uh, uh, early spring, they called and said there was some type of problem and, and, uh, we had caused it. And we went out and, um... So we could see that there was some moisture in the attic, but we couldn't really determine the source, uh, and, and w- is it related to our bath fan venting and, and, uh...

And the more I looked at the job, and I haven't been on a job, um... It's tough to say. It, it was the bath fan vented incorrectly. Was there a weather anomaly? We had some strange, uh, wind, uh, patterns that sometimes you can get a, a, a heavy wind that can, um, or a heavy rain or a heavy anything that, uh, can, can, uh, be an anomaly and things can happen. So we kinda cleared things away, looked it over and, and we said, "We really need to come back and kind of assess, uh, where the water's coming from." Probably had to duplicate maybe a rain.

Um, but they kinda went into defensive mode and, uh, you know, uh, a legalese mode and, "You're gonna come back, and you're gonna do this, and you're gonna have three different, uh, verification contractors pay f- you know, paid on your dime." And, and, uh, I'm looking at this thinking, "Well, this, this is not the way to properly resolve this." You have a company that is, uh, stands by their work.

And, uh, all I kept thinking is, "You know, you, you chose the right company," I, I, um, but I'm wondering if I-- we did not choose the right customer.

Yeah. Exactly. And, and it, and it, she was, uh, he or she was asking for our insurance, and I sort of debated. I'm like, "Well, this isn't really an insurance claim. If this is a quality of work claim, we'll just, you know, fix our quality of work." And, um, wanted third-party infrared scans.

I'm a, I'm a level one thermographer, so, uh, I don't know that I would go, uh, purchase that service from someone else. Um, I don't know how many people were in those attics and never said what the, what the moisture source was. So when I went back and looked at some of the IR pictures,

I started to realize that there was water near some skylights. These folks have probably been in the home five, 10 years. They probably didn't install the roof. They probably didn't install the skylights. Skylights are not, uh, the most, uh, favorite, uh, light-emitting, uh, device that I like to see in roofs. And, uh, they eventually fail. And

I think 'cause we were there on a dry day, and then we came for installation on a cold day, we didn't know that they have active roof leaks and-- 'cause they only leak when it rains. And I think that's the end result.

Um, and y- when you cut the work scope but want the full benefits of all the work scope, had we vacuumed everything out, it probably would've been very crystal clear that there-- the moisture was in these certain spots. And, um, it, uh, it'll-- I wonder where it'll go. You know, we're kinda off to the insurance and kinda off to, uh, homeowner's insurance, where it was just something that we would have fixed, but I don't think they wanted to take responsibility for, you know, maybe their 20-year-old roof and 20-year-old skylights when there was already the preexisting problem. They've already had, uh, many contractors out to solve, uh, this with, with, with their attic. So it was, it w- the s- the signs were there, and that's usually when that happens, we get a little better at trying to, um, maybe weed out a, uh, a client that's not a good fit or is gonna become a problem down the road. But, you know, when-- sometimes when we give the price, it's like, the reality is the price is probably gonna be materials, labor, and we're gonna have some profit in there 'cause otherwise we won't be able to fix other people's homes next week if we don't put any of that in there. So when people wanna... Sometimes people want the price down, and it's like, "Well, what should

I cut? Should I cut, should I cut my labor, my materials, or my profit, or my quality?" 'Cause generally you would, you would, you would think I'm gonna cut my quality first. And, and by, by choosing not to remove all the insulation, uh, we tell people we are-- we cannot air seal as much as we can if we properly removed it. So, uh, I-- we might get to the point where we would just turn that job down. I'm sorry. Mm-hmm. Yep. That, that is the best package. Absolutely. You-- if you don't want it, then, um, then, then this is not a good fit for either of us, so, uh- Yeah, you don't wanna recruit a fight.

Right. Right? And, uh, you know, I just was at a similar home, not a similar home, but I was in a town home recently. It was funny. I've always driven by this town home complex and thought, "Boy, I'm surprised no one ever calls from in there."

And, and lo and behold, uh, somebody called, and, uh, I ended up knowing them from, uh, from my youth, and, uh, and they said they had these terrible ice problems and, and stumbled on Wise Home Energy. And I was s- you know, said, "Oh, I, you know, didn't realize you owned it." And, um, so I went out. She'd had a roof, uh, put on recently, and, um, unbeknownst to me, she had had insulation done, and they couldn't remember when, but it was, you know, maybe in the past five, seven years. And, uh, we went up in the attic, and we said, "Well, it's, it's not done right."

Um, and, and they listed the, the contractor, and it turned out to be a, a BPI contractor in the program. And, and so not all people, you know, um, and, and nobody's... As my father used to say, not everybody graduates at the top of their class. And, and, and kind of the same thing in industries. Not everybody's gonna be at the top of their game. And we're left to tell them that this can be dramatically improved. We can remove this insulation and, uh- Take pictures of everything and then air seal it properly. We have the data with the blower door.

We know we can reduce that. We'll give you hard, uh, numbers. I don't know if the other contractor did, but, but we see that and we think, "Well, we're the bad people when we come in and tell them that the job you paid for was not done properly."

Um- You, you hate, hate being the, uh, the messenger. We... Yeah, it's really... It's interesting, and I think the roofer, you know, sh- they were friends with the roofer, and he came over and... I feel bad for these roofers 'cause everybody thinks because the ice lands on your roof, you're the, uh, you're the problem. And, and it's really not. And, and I stumbled on this quote, uh, this morning that just completely made sense.

And it said that, um, "Bad roofs and bad gutters don't cause ice dams, but ice dams cause bad roofs and bad gutters." And that is, that is really sums it up in, uh, two sentences. There's a takeaway. Write that down, folks. Yes. It'll... This is gonna be on the, uh, quiz later on. It is.

Yeah. Uh, credit Terry Brennan, a, uh, moisture, uh, guru that I used to, uh, you know, attend presentations with, uh, 20 years ago and, uh, it, it so makes sense. Everybody wants to blame the roof and the gutter, and, um, that's just not the case. Uh, so those are just some tales of caution. Uh, ask a lot of questions. Ask, ask questions what's gonna go wrong. What if something goes wrong? What will happen in six months or a year? Where will you stand on this equipment that, uh, you're, you're installing? Where will you stand on this, uh, insulation project? So those are, uh, those are good questions to ask. Uh, you know, getting three quotes, nothing wrong with that. A lot of times when we... people say that they're getting other quotes, we recommend other quotes. What

I wanna see is white out the dollar amount, show me the detailed work scope. That's what I wanna see. I always say, "What was the blower door number? Can you send me their infrared scans?

And send me their detailed work scope." Because if it says we're gonna air seal top plates and penetrations of pipes and electrical wires, drop soffits, then that's what should happen in your attic, and a lot of times that just does not happen.

Um, so, uh, that's a, a, a word of, uh, advice for people. Our clients don't climb in their attics. I mean, that's out of 100 people, we're probably looking at two people that are gonna climb into a, a hatch in the ceiling. May- or maybe if it's a walk-up attic, yeah, we're gonna get, uh, 75 to 100% of those, but most people aren't going into their attic.

That's okay. We don't need you to. Uh, we'll take all the pictures for you to show you the conditions of your attic, and we'll give you the data with the blower doors, with the infrared scans to show you what's going on and, and how it can be improved. And really with insulation and air sealing, when it's done properly, that is gonna last and save you for the next 20 years, however long you're gonna live in that home.

So, uh, there's no cost to it a- of, of operating it once you install it. For a new HVAC system or new water heater, yes, there's operational costs afterwards. And big costs in not doing it. Yeah. I mean, not just in energy, but in, uh, you know, wear and tear and what's gonna happen with the roof and what's gonna happen with your possessions, and eventually getting it done right is gonna cost more than it costs today. Yeah. It's never gonna cost less than it costs today. Yeah.

Uh, not, not given the way that, uh, the economy goes. Absolutely. And, and, and, you know, people l- like this client, it's a slow process in your attic, so even though it's not performing and, and it's creating moisture problems in your attic, uh, it won't show up right away. And five years down the road, the average client doesn't know it has anything to do with the insulation, uh, that was installed, uh, improperly.

So, um, it's a sh- a shame. I, I wish, uh, it was more of a self-regulating industry because it gives a bad, uh, rap to the industry. A lot of times I'll see in these Facebook groups or stuff, you know, "That stuff doesn't work. Insulation doesn't work. I had it done. Uh, heat pumps don't work. I had it done." Hmm.

It's just you gotta have this checklist. It's, it's not everything, um, because it's... somebody says it's energy efficient doesn't mean that it's energy efficient. Uh, so just like that guy who called the other day who said, uh, uh, that he insulated the, the crawl space, I kinda said, "Well, you know, sometimes fiberglass," you know, we're really removing fiberglass. About 98% of the fiberglass that we handle is removal and, um, disposal because the product doesn't, uh, well, just doesn't fit Wise Home Energy real well. Uh, one is-

And why is that? Well, for myself, I have a personal bias. When I climb into an attic and if I, uh, am not paying attention or following our company's protocols of wearing, uh, pr- proper protective, uh, personal equipment, uh,

I start coughing immediately. The fi- It's nasty stuff to handle ... the fibers floating around in that attic are terrible, and just even a pop of my head. So for me, it's an irritant. I have other people

I work with- And this is even the bats, right? The- Yeah ... the, the, that have the paper backing. Yeah. Yep. And there's, and there's a... They're probably in the past few years they did something with it that I think maybe is better, but it's just spun glass and, and the old stuff would break apart and, and fly in the air. And, uh, boy, you just don't want it in your eyes, you don't want it on your skin, and I certainly didn't want it in my lungs.

No. And I, you know, whenever I make that mistake, I got two hours of coughing out of me. So my respirator, I got, you know, one in my, my personal car, one for my work vehicle. I'm making sure that, that, that I don't make that mistake anymore. And it, um, it doesn't air seal, and it's the most prominent insulation we know of, right? You go into a big box store and there's rows and rows and stacks and stacks of it, and it doesn't air seal. We make

Uh, furnace filters out of it. We make cigarette filters out of it. It's, it's meant for air to go through it. So, um, if it's a, if it's a six-sided box, a wall that is properly sealed and it's got a full fluff compression, uh, in the cavity,

I'm sure it performs perfectly fine in their studies. Absolutely. Uh, so for us as an installation, uh, uh, product and a retrofit, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Uh, cellulose is, uh, our preferred product in many instances. Uh, eh, but people call us up and they, they sorta, they sorta decide what product they want, and not every product works for every assembly. So a wall that's closed is not gonna be able to take, um, spray foam.

Um, uh, they... There's certain other things that people ask for different products, and it's like, well, that, that's a great product, but it's not great for the application you wanna use it. And we need to think of moisture, um, uh, migration and how that's gonna move through the home. So, uh, and that gets a little tricky, you know?

So we'll continue to build out our website to help educate people on, on what the best products are for the best, uh, um, situation in your home. There's kinda...

You know, people get afraid of spray foam, uh, because when you're spraying it, uh, there's nasty chemicals that are off-gassing, and you don't wanna be around it. But we all get in our cars. You, you wouldn't wanna be in a spray paint booth when they're spray painting those cars, right? Never thought of it that way- So ... but that's a good point.

Uh- So, you know, you're probably picking up on the notion here, a- as you listen to these case histories, that this, this whole thing is a... First of all, it's not, you're not buying a product. You're not buying, you know, a, a HVAC unit, you know, a furnace or an air conditioner compressor.

You're buying, uh, a performance-based installation within your home. And so there's science here, and, and truthfully, there's some art here too, right? There is, yeah. That, that's... A- and I don't mean that to, you know, to sound, uh, uh, you know, woke or frou-frou or anything. I'm just talking about experience. A- and that's where the art comes in. Yeah. There is a lot of different, uh, things. That home, that town home the other day, they... uh, other contractor dense packed this, uh, 10-foot slope of cellulose, and

I'm, I'm thinking, "That's not advisable." That cathedral, uh, from an 80s build standpoint, should have a baffle going up to the attic flat. And if, if the client described it properly,

I'm thinking, "That is, that's a lack of knowledge of, of how this home's gonna perform." You almost have to think of where the air is gonna go. I, uh, I always remember my dad, uh, working at, uh, the family, uh, of the apartments that they owned growing up as a kid. I was... He had me repairing some, some sidewalk with some, some concrete and, and he was... You know, I think I did it wrong and sloped it wrong, and he was like, "Think like the water. Think like where it's gonna go." Um, and I just, you know, whatever,

14 years old, I was like, "Yeah, that, that makes sense." And, and sort of it's the same thing with home performance. We have to think how is, how are they gonna use the home in the future? How is air gonna flow? Uh, so yeah. Those are the things. And where, and where is the water gonna go? That's right. Just like Dad said. Ah, the wisdom of Jeff Flaherty, uh, the, uh, owner-operator of Wise Home

Energy. Uh, this is a paid program sponsored by Wise Home Energy. And, uh, give them your contact information and your website there, Jeff. Yeah, wisehomeenergy.com or 585-270-5836. You can call or text. Thanks for listening.

See you next time. What you're thinking. There are some things you can't hide