Hybrid Water Heaters, Stacked Grants, and Why the Blower Door Wins

Exploring the horizons of HVAC once again, it's time for another visit with Jeff Flaherty and Wise Home Energy here on WYSL. Pure energy. Hey, Bob. Hey, welcome. Hey. HVAC, it's time to heat things up.

Well- Or... Mother Nature's gonna take care of that. Yeah, maybe we can cool things down. Yeah. And, and make it' less humid. I mean, it's all about comfort. It is. It is. Energy, comfort, and cost. That's, uh, that's the trifecta, I think, that we, uh, we tend to focus on.

I, uh, I had an interesting call this week, uh, where a, uh, a gentleman who, uh, we've had a project kind of going on for quite some time and, um, just because he's been difficult to finish up, uh, the project. And he called up, uh, and started to complain about his hot water tank that we installed in October.

And, uh, it wasn't about the hot water, it was, uh, that he had his heating guy, I don't know what that means, down in his basement, uh, servicing his uh, furnace I presume. And he said he heard this fan going on, uh, nonstop in the basement and he, he Googled what it was and he said, "You know, you got an electric hot water tank."

And our client said, "I, I didn't know that. What?" And, and- He didn't know? Yeah, he didn't know. And I stepped back and I said, "Wait a minute. Did you Google it or did the, the, the, your HVAC, guy Google it?" And, he goes, "My HVAC guy did." And I said, "Well, that's, that' might not be the guy who's, you know, up to speed on. the latest technology."

And, he' said, "Yeah, that thing's all electric and, uh, we lose power here all the time, and so and so is trying to force that stuff on us. I, I want it out." And I said, "Well, you've had it in for six months."

And, uh, a- and I made me, you know, look up, a, a calculator today just to show, uh, with his costs of natural gas versus electric, uh, uh, with 50 gallons of use a day, he would, he would use about $98, uh, in fuel usage for electric.

Uh, but if it was gas, he would lo- use, uh, $175. So he would almost do double- ... had he had gas. And, uh, he wanted it out really purely for political reasons. He said, "We lose power here all the time." He had a 20-year-old hot water tank, so the new one that he would've got gas would be serviced with electric. Even though it's gas fired, it has electric if he would've gone that route. So regardless- It has, it has like electric backup?

Uh, it has an electric ignition, yeah, or a power vent. Usually it's a power vent to the outside. So- Let me understand something here. His hot water heater has a fan? So our, uh, our hybrid heat pumps, what they are doing is pulling a little heat out of the basement, um, and turning that into heat and heating, uh, the hot water. And it's a little larger tank. It's 55 gallons as com- uh, opposed to the traditional natural gas 40 gallon tank. And it's just taking... So we, we install them in semi-conditioned basements or, uh, uh, unconditioned basements where it'll, it'll drop the temperature a couple degrees in the basement, but it's very efficient by using that kind of leftover heat in the basement to turn it into hot water.

And then if it's not, uh, enough to create enough heat or if you have a higher demand, it goes into a full electric backup. Okay. So that's the hybrid, uh, nature of it. So it's very efficient. Uh- I have learned something today. This is why I love having you out here. Yeah. Every time you come.

It's, it's, it's great. And, uh, it, it does a little bit of dehumidification. So many homes have little old dehumidifiers. It's not gonna dehumidify your whole basement, but it does a little bit of dehumidification. Th- so there's a bit of savings that we, we don't really calculate.

Um, but it was interesting. And, and so on, on the... Usually, uh, in all our clients, we have kind of a bell curve, right? There's, uh, the, uh, the meat and potatoes in the middle. The bulk of people, um, understand what they've purchased, and, uh, and we've explained it to them. We walk through them.

So I, I don't know what, uh, you know, if that was just a bad day he was having, but it was, it was thing... You know, it- He wanted gas. Yeah, and he wanted his old one back, which was 20 years old. I mean, it was, it was gonna, it was gonna come due soon, right? 20 years is, uh, it's gonna fail and, uh, y- then you're gonna have emergency... You know, call and have emergency, uh, replacement is not the best option.

So it's, it's interesting the technology. Uh, what I took away from that is that sadly people don't believe, um, these things work or are against them. And with the incentives,

I mean, this financially was the best option for him. Uh, when we look at the different incentives for gas, for, uh, electric, this was the best. And that's the upfront cost. Then the operational cost, uh, you factor that out over 10 years, uh, it's the difference between paying $980 versus $1,700, uh, for natural gas. So it's really a no-brainer if the home, uh, can take it.

Uh, you know, there's a, the little, little higher, um- Uh, need in the basement. It's, uh, uh, probably a foot, uh, six inches, foot higher than a natural gas tank.

So not every basement can handle one of these, but, but the technology's there and we know, um, this product works for, you know, e- each, uh, particular home we go into. That's how we spec it. And so it kinda makes me think that people aren't, you know, keeping up, on' the technology or, uh, shoo-shooing it away- You mean like me? ... without really researching it. That's all here. What? It's got a fan? It's got- We don't... Yeah, we don't expect, we don't expect people to know our industry, right? We get calls a lot of times for people's furnaces not working, and their furnace isn't working, and it's not working. And we get out there and we say, "Your b- your boiler isn't working."

So it's, uh, to them it's just a heating plant, and we understand that, and that's why you wanna use a, a trusted advisor. But as we talk about, um, the incentives, uh, anybody who's, uh, income eligible, um, if you don't want to go the, the electric route, hey, choice. I love choice.

That's what, that's what the capitalist market is. Free market allows us to make the best choice for us, and that can be different for each person. So if you want natural gas and you have an older furnace that doesn't go out the side wall, the PVC, and you expect to upgrade that, you should do that this year because I fully expect that either at the end of this year or the end of next year, they will get rid of these heavy, um, um, incentives for gas upgrades for people that are income eligible. They've already done it for market rate people.

They've really moved it to you have to kind of go electric and, and I'm not the biggest fan of not having those options. But if you're income eligible and you have the remote interest of replacing your gas furnace or gas hot water tank in the next couple years, you should look at that, doing that this year

'cause we fully expect that to go away. Sure would be great if, uh, New York State would increase the, uh, electric generation as well because we're, uh, kind of, kind of, uh, not doing great on, the supply side. Yeah. Where we're importing, you know, uh, Canadian power and from neighboring states and it's kind of the expensive way to do it. Yeah. And they, they s- you know, they s- they've separated that. years ago from the, from the, suppliers and the, delivery company.

So, um, was just looking at' a chart recently giving a presentation, uh, to a local town and, uh, and, and seeing that broad usage. So coal's, uh, a little down and, um, um, you know, nuclear is something that, uh, you know, kind of ebbs and flows in people's minds but, uh, in some regards that seems like a very clean fuel from the research I've done. Um- Oh, it's, it's a great technology." Yeah.

And, uh- And Fr- France, 70% of the electric is, uh, nuc- Yeah. So having that proper balance, um, of clean energy, uh, sources gives us... and then it gives us. competitive advantage, right? The world, uh, certainly has some, some upheaval, uh, more so now, than maybe, uh, i- in recent past. So, uh, that usually has, um, a, play in the, uh, energy market.

So having those multitude of, uh, sources for energy, uh, helps out on, on competitive costs, and our costs are real reasonable, uh, around this area. Had some folks in, um, last week. I'm, I'm fortunate enough to be in a, uh, a peer group with, uh, five contractors around the country, uh, and they came to do a site visit at, uh, Wise Home Energy and, uh, you know, just listen to some of the different, uh, costs.

You know, one company down in Westchester County, another over in California. I think he said he was at 40 or 50 cents a kilowatt hour and we're at- Yeah ... 11 cents here locally, you know, maybe 15 and- Can you imagine? No. I- it's, so it's, uh... we're pretty fortunate. We don't know, uh, you know, the heartache that, uh, other areas have. But, um, so we really, uh, we really encourage people to, uh, you know, look at these grants. If you know someone, maybe this doesn't fit for you, but it seems like everybody would, know somebody, um, that would fall into these programs. Uh, you know, a family of four, annual income, uh, less than 93,000 a year, and, we calculate that, uh, with last year's tax return or the last four weeks of pay stubs, whichever is easier for you. And over the years, I've, I've been in the industry for, uh, coming up on 20- years and I used to have a lot of heartache where someone would' enroll somebody, maybe a senior citizen, and their child would be down in the South, right? They have people flock out of the area for weather or jobs, and they would tell them, "Don't let anybody in your home. This is a scam."

And I felt, I'd feel awful. They would, they would cancel out of the program and just miss their opportunity for, um, some of these upgrades that are, um, you know, either s- you know, severely discounted or, um, some items might be no cost altogether.

So, uh, you know, if you know somebody who fits that bill or might remotely be possible, this is the year to do it. And- So these incentives are currently in effect.

Good. Uh, you wanna, you know, use it or lose it. Yeah. Absolutely. And it's, uh, you know, oftentimes we go into homes and, and they're like, "I just got a new furnace and I paid full price with

XYZ." And, um, th- there's nothing to say. There's no go ba- "Oh, well, we can get you a credit for what you already did." It doesn't work that way. No. And we... So we don't even say anything, you know. We just, mm, I'd like to say, "I wish you would've called me a year ago because not only would we have, uh, gotten you a significant discount on it, we would have analyzed the whole home and probably gotten y- a different sized unit that fits with more of the work we're gonna do, uh, maybe on the insulation side." So- But maybe a redo, uh, would be amortized over a shorter period of time, even if they do have relatively new equipment. They're gonna save a lot on the energy, right?

Yeah. They, they will Um, but they're-- all the incentives, once you, once you upgrade that to the high efficiency, then the incentives go out the window. So that's kinda... We, we, we hope that the state will review that at some point, but right now, um, we're just looking at older, uh, efficiency equipment. Got it. So, um- You got the 15-year-old furnace.

Yeah. The 20-year-old water heater. Yeah. You're the guys. Yeah. And it can e- Yeah, it can even be five or 10 if they're, um, you know, if you slammed it in under an emergency breakdown. Um, sometimes people go with the 80%, and, um, you know, that's eligible. So it's really about that efficiency, um, that was labeled on the box when they bought it and, uh-

And that's what dr- that's what drives it. Yeah. It's the, it's the actual unit's efficiency. Yeah. We get these. So we get the h- We get the house is eligible... Well, we should say the, the owner or the tenants are eligible based off their income, then we have to look at the house and see what's eligible based off of the condition. So efficiency of the furnace and hot water tank and then, uh, the insulation levels and air leakage levels. We look at those independently and see what goes into a magical calculator to, uh, see what's approved and what grants are available. Every, every case is different, and that's why you need to call Wise Home Energy.

Don't be uncomfortable in your home. Don't be humid in your home. Don't be sweaty in your home. You pick up? the phone and you call... 585-270-5836.

So, you know, on, that note, um, we, uh, uh, have talked... These are the state grants we talk about. And so, like, on this gas, that's the state grant, uh, through NYSERDA.

Um, there's other options. We-- Sometimes we guide you to, uh... Say we find something in your home and, and, and we, we say, "You know, that's not within our, program, but we know of another program." We'll guide you to that. So we, we are a trusted advisor once we get in the home.

Um, sometimes a home isn't quite ready for, uh, our services, so we, we, we, we say, "Hey, this has to be, uh, taken care of first." So for example, you wouldn't, uh, insulate an attic that had an active roof leak. Total, you know, total waste of money and you're gonna, you know, cr- make worse, uh, trouble up in the attic with a water. leak. Um, but with the state stuff, uh, what has happened is the Inflation Reduction Act from a couple years ago, uh, has, has had a component for low to moderate income, uh, to improve their homes. And each one, each state was done on a case-by-case basis. You had to apply, and New York is one of the first ones to apply, and it's been a, a two-year process. And they, uh, they have applied, and those, um, those grants are in effect. So there's kind of some additional monies available. And it' really... Those same things. If you go to that income level, um, you know, a family of three, 78,464 annual a year. If you make that, uh, last year's tax return or, um, last four weeks of pay stubs, you are eligible for some of these additional grants. Now, that program is meant to electrify. So that, that's, that's certainly, um, something that they wanna do. That's not gonna be working toward gas, but you can stack some of these things and it, it's just gonna be, uh, uh, uh, the right time for people to get involved in this and, and look at it. And it's, um, uh, as we've talked about before, our process is pretty, uh, regimented in do the assessment first and, uh, then we, find out what the home needs. And it was funny, I recently, um...

We were, we were looking at, uh, Wise Home Energy and some of the human resources and, um, you know, do we wanna outsource that? And so we, we were calling a consultant and we're like, "Hey, we, you know, we're looking for this." And they said, "We need to come and kinda do an audit on your organization to see what, what you have currently and what you need."

And, uh, our, our operations manager said, "Yeah, it's kinda similar to our system. We need to go and do an assessment first to figure out what you have and where you wanna go and, and, and bridge the gap there and, and, and fill it in from there."

So- I'm sorry, and this is from NYSERDA? Um, so NYSERDA offers the no-cost assessment. Okay. And, and then from there we do the, uh, you know, we do the assessment. Uh, NYSERDA pays us a nominal fee to come out and do the assessment.

Each company's assessment is different. Ours is, uh, more advanced. So we're, we're, um... We call them clipboard audits, uh, because they're kind of a walkthrough visual audit, uh- So you're not doing the blower door, door at this ti- at this point? Well, so it depends on, um, the state.

Uh, if it's income eligible, we're supposed to do the blower door, but if you're just getting a walkthrough audit, we add on the blower door test, uh, within reason, if it's a reasonable size house, uh, under 3,000 square foot.

Uh, and then we add on a 30-minute indoor air quality test because we believe that we need to know, uh, what's going on in that home first before we begin to tighten it up. So there's, as we said, the visual, looking at what's going on in the home, and then the testing. So the blower door test is, uh, measuring the, uh, amount of air leakage in the home, uh, which is just a phenomenal test.

And then we add on, let's look at what's really not visible, what's in the air? So we add that 30-minute indoor air quality test, um, that I don't know of anybody else who's, uh, offering that test, uh, here locally, that just tells us what's going on.

So we, you know, we have people in homes that, uh, have allergies, um, and so it could be seasonal al- allergies, right? So we got pollens. If the home is leaky and it's not filtrating, it's gonna be inside, or, there's something in the home that is, uh, aggravating, um, our immune system and- Like mold?

Yeah. And so our indoor air quality test is gonna indicate whether we have some, uh, humidity issues which start to... When we couple that with our infrared test, we start to see that there's, the conditions are, are ripe for mold.

Um, so- All those things, uh, come together and we, we, we need to paint that picture and, and figure out all the different components that go into that home. So ours is, is certainly, uh, quite different than others. And, and that blower door test is, is a mystery for most people. We recently were on a, a local, uh, TV show, um, doing an educational session, and our general manager, uh,

Ryan Puckett, who was on recently, uh, the radio show here, and, and he said that his family member said, um, you know, "Have we ever had that blower door test done?" And, and he's been- ... he's been working 10 years and, uh, such a, um, you know, committed person to the industry and Wise Home Energy and doing good work.

Um, but here a family member is, is kind of now intrigued because they finally got to see that blower door test. And, uh, it's, it's amazing. I mean, we're, we're working on a home right now that has a blower door of, um, I think over 11,000. Now it's a, it's a larger home, but 11,000 is, it, it's, that's a, that's a leaky, leaky- Pretty, pretty leaky ... leaky home.

Okay. So, um, that is, you know, that... It sounds like close the, close the windows first is the first, uh, recommendation we'd have. Yeah. But that's not the case. Uh, uh, older home maybe?

Uh, y- very unique, um, I don't know if you'd call it a Federalist, uh, big old brick home- Oh ... with those floor-to-ceiling windows.

So when you get the brick, you get, uh, brick's kind of porous and then the, the walls are kind of, uh, almost like a furred out or a plank wall we call them, with like a two-by-four turned sideways. Uh, but and then an addition and, uh, so there's, uh... A- and, and interest- Sounds, sounds charming. Yeah. Interestingly enough, the, I believe the gentleman worked in, um, performa- um, it's called performance contracting, where they go to a hospital or a school and do energy efficiency there. And those, uh, big contracts like that, they will, um, do the upgrades and kind of map that all out and, and that company will take a portion of the savings.

And it's kind of... It's called performance contracting, big in hospitals, schools, big commercial and government buildings. Um, and it's kinda you're, you're, uh, you're charging a capture of the savings. Kinda interesting. So he works in that commercial end and, and he was very intrigued with the residential side and, and what we're gonna do on his home. So some of it is you, you trade the good with the bad, right? The big old brick. I mean, this home looks beautiful. Yeah.

Uh, but, uh- Love that architecture. Yeah. Single pane windows, we wouldn't advise you to- Oh, yeah ... get rid of those. Right. You know, there may be is some, uh, some internal, uh, storm windows you could do on something like that. But, but each home, uh, is different in that, that blower door test is, is really one of our biggest, um, um, diagnostic tools, but then also is a quality control tool. So it measures the, the air leakage of the home, as we've talked in the past. It just sets up in the front door, uh, quantifies the amount of air leaking out of the home, and then also qualitatively shows us where that air is leaking out of the home. So

I think there's no better time than this year to really, um, you know, take advantage of it. And really you can stage it.

You can, you know, sign up this year. Some of these things, there used to be these wait periods. If you did some work and you got some of the grant, you would have to wait three years. Uh, three-year look back. Um, they have just waived that three-year look back. So even if you've just gone through the program last year,

I would certainly have you call Wise Home Energy at 585-270-5836 and apply again if there were things that you still wanted to improve in your home because it's, it's... this is the time. Yeah. And the, uh, the message that, uh, Wise Home Energy, uh, uh, s- sets forth is don't be cold in your home, don't be hot in your home, uh, you know, just be comfortable. Uh, that's really the dividend because, you know, if, if you've, you know, lived in the usual home environment of static electricity and having your, uh, nasal passages and mucus membranes all dried out and, uh, and for some reason you just can't get cool in the summertime, uh, well, it doesn't have to be that way. Absolutely. Yeah. It's, um... And people are reluctant to say that. Like, sometimes you just become, you become immune to it, right? You wear the- Just get used to it and- Yeah. You wear the blankets, uh, you, you, you turn the fans on in the summertime- Put on a sweater

... and you just, you just start to grunt through it. And you can become pretty immune to a lot of different pain, right? And that, and that's a, that's a pain where, um, occasionally people will say, um, you know, "I just... I, I'm thinking of moving.

Like, I, I either... We've been here seven years and I just... I either... We either need to fix this home or we need to move." And, and we can usually say, "Hey, 9 times out of 10 we can fix this home," or, "Hey, the budget isn't quite there. Maybe moving is the best option."

And, and we'll give you that, um, we'll give you that, um, uh, open, uh, honest communication. We, uh... One of our reps just went to a home and the home was a beautiful home facing, uh, one of our wonderful Finger Lakes with a wall of glass that had just been replaced, um, a sloped roof that had just been replaced. It, it was really quite a unique home.

And my rep said, "There, there's nothing we're gonna be able to do." But he just said, "I'm not gonna just walk out of here. Let's set up the blower door test and I'm gonna show this client What's going on in his home.

And a lot of the, uh, casement around the windows, well, we used some diagnostic, um, uh, smoke or theater fog, and we can show all the air leaking around these beautiful brand-new windows he had. So just maybe some of that is just, hey, you can caulk this, or the installer, you know, would've been better suited to use, um, a window foam when they installed it. And, um, his equipment was probably oversized, but it was new, so w- who's gonna replace that?

You're, you're kind of in a grin and bear it mode if you've just made all these upgrades. But he decided that, uh, you know, I, I'm gonna go through this home and show this person, you know, what's going on in the home and why he's uncomfortable, and he could do some of these things and maybe use his HVAC system a little differently, um, to create some comfort and, and lower some energy bills.

Yeah, and that's, uh, uh, this is the juncture where we say it, it's really important for you to not just, you know, reflexively go to the, the usual solutions. Well, we need to change out the furnace. Uh, well, we need new windows. Um, y- uh, we need more insulation.

I mean, those things may be true. Yes. Uh, but not necessarily. It's a scientific approach now, folks. It's not like, you know, well, I think we need a new furnace, or maybe the air conditioner's undersized.

Uh, this, there, there, there's not simplistic solutions like that anymore. Right. Not, not if you wanna get the, you know, the best performance and be comfortable in your home and save money at the same time. Yeah.

And you know where all the programs. That's the great thing. We really do. We really can access, um, you know, many different, uh, programs. Uh, there's some based on utilities. There are some based on the state incentives.

There are some federal programs that we don't have access to, but we can refer you to them. Um, there are local, uh, uh, resources per town. There is a federal USDA, uh, uh, loan for people in more rural areas if they need some upgrades. So we access all the different grants. Um, if there's low interest financing available for your particular area, we're gonna, we're gonna present that to you and just guide you. We're, we're a trusted partner as we walk through this path.

And if it's, if you do the assessment and the path isn't for you right now, that's okay. At least you have that, um, list of items, uh, properly prioritized on what you can improve in your home. Um- Yeah. Another thing too is, and this is not a knock on any of these contractors.

There's many fine, uh, uh, contractors, uh, many of whom advertise on this station. But if you call a, a, you know, a, a furnace company, they're gonna wanna sell you a furnace 'cause that's what they do for a living. If you call a roofing company, they're gonna wanna put a roof on your house if it needs it. I'm not saying that they're gonna just stampede you into a new roof that you don't need, but I mean, this is, this is what they do. Right. And y- you need a more systemic approach to all of this to, to solve the comfort problems that you have in your home, and that's what Wise Home Energy excels in. You guys are the expert, and you know where the bodies are buried when it comes to finding money to get this stuff done. That's right. That's right. Absolutely. Yeah, and it's just, um, tried and true process. You know, we'd say call or text 585-270-5836. [upbeat 80s music] Visit us on the web at www.wisehomeenergy.com.

Uh, don't be cold in your home. Pick up the phone. Don't be hot and humid in your home. Pick up the phone. Jeff Flaherty, thanks for being here for the Wise Home Energy Show, again, on the WYSL stations. We'll see you next time for another exciting program.