Ice Dams, Oversized Furnaces, and the Magic Paint That Fools Home Buyers

This podcast is brought to you by Open Door Mission, Restoring Hope and Changing Lives. opendoormission.com. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome once again to Almost Spring here. It's time for the Wise Home Energy

Show on, the Voice of Liberty, WYSL, and- Pure energy ... WLEA. Uh, we have Jeff Flaherty in the studio. Hey, Jeff. Hey, Bob.

How are you today? I am just hunky-dory. Excellent. I think it's a wonderful day to talk about energy. Can we do a two-hour show today? Do we have time? Yeah, we have to talk real fast, though- Okay ... 'cause we have to fit it' in half an hour. All right. There's a, there's a lot of stuff going on these days with energy and, uh, c- people complaining about- Yeah ... energy bills. I- Energy's, energy's been a big problem for a long time. Yeah.

I complain about energy bills myself when the bill comes in at home and, um, we, we get a lot of that stuff. And, uh, I had an interesting, um, situation this week where a person signed up for an energy audit and, and- it' was a renter, and the landlord has to fill out some paperwork and, and, uh, she s-- I talked to her on the phone and she says, "You know, the problem is my, uh, my electric is brutal and, you know, it's my hot water heater." Um, she said, "RG&E says it's, it's my hot water heater." And

I said, "How do you know that?" And she said, "Well, they're, they're sending me? these reports." And, I, I said, uh, "Well, if it's your electric, is your hot water tank electric?" And, she said, "Yes."

And, I s-- Is it' on a separate meter? I mean, how can you separate it' out? So what I think is going on is with the smart meters. Oh. So she sent over the report. The algorithms, the AI says at seven o'clock each morning, the electric, really ramps up for 10 minutes and then shuts down. Uh, and they have determined...

And it, it, it, and I don't get these reports, I don't know why, but, uh, y- the report was kind of interesting. It, it kind of broke down. It was, it's kitchen related. I mean, it, it felt like Big Brother as you look at this.

Well- Um, yeah ... isn't that what, isn't that what people have been objecting to for, I don't know, 10 years now? Absolutely. Yeah. And I think, so I think what'll happen is there'll be more education for clients, um, and it'll, uh, it'll allow us to make better decisions in the home. Now, she was a renter, and I emailed, uh, the owner and I said, "You know, electric? hot water tanks are low upfront cost, high operational costs." So for the landlord, that sounds good, but for the tenant, uh, she is probably ready to, to get out? of town, you know?

Uh, so I thought it was really interesting that they have that kind of data, and those algorithms, will probably just keep getting stronger and stronger. And I'm sure they'll make some mistakes with it. But, uh, it, was, uh, that was enlightening 'cause

I, I was thinking, "How do they see inside the home? They don't have, uh, trackers on' each circuit." But, I... it, just must be, uh- Well, they have a different way of doing it. Yeah. There's different, different ways to skin a cat. I foresee some 4:00 AM showers in that, uh, person's, uh, future. It, it could very well- be. It could very well be.

Uh, one of the things, uh, that goes on' is there's these rebates and, uh, who, uh, knows how these rebates work. So there's, there's NYSERDA that has a, uh, insulation rebate, and it' operates under the Comfort Home. program.

So anybody in the publicly, uh, regulated utilities, NYSEG, RG&E, National Grid, uh, National Fuel, they're all eligible to participate in the o- assessment and the rebate program.

Uh, municipal, uh, uh, electric, uh, customers can still get the energy audit, but the rebates fall to that municipality. And it's interesting because you can use that rebate or RG&E and NYSEG have an insulation rebate, and it all comes out of the same pot of money. But we just received notice that RG&E has put a pause on their rebate because it sounds like they're running out of money. So who knows how much money they give them. Uh, but that's why I always say, uh, get at it, check it out, figure out what you want. And, and the way that works, uh, is that the RG&E one can be a little, um... They all have these crazy rules, and the RG&E can be, "Hey, we can do your attic," and you can get the rebate, where the Comfort Home NYSERDA one is you have to do your attic and your basement rim joists.

And if somebody doesn't wanna do that or it's not accessible, now, you can't access that rebate. So, uh, we hope that they're gonna fund that and, and keep that going, but it's al- always why

I, you know, say to people, "Why wait? Get involved." I mean, especially as these rates keep climbing and climbing and climbing, you-- all you can control is your usage. Uh, you don't wanna turn your thermostat down to

40. Uh, y- you, you want a well-insulated home that performs properly. I saw one of the, uh, New York senators, uh, was, uh, well, legislator, maybe he was an assemblyman, uh, is, uh, m- he, he, uh, held a press conference and is demanding the reopening of Indian Point, which would be a wonderful thing to do. I think there's been a lot of bad policy.

Um, there's people that, uh, get in office for a year or two or f- 40, uh, and they sign something not, uh, recognizing the law of unintended consequences. For every action, there's a reaction. We don't really know, how that's gonna happen. I recall some years ago when we went to, energy efficient, uh, streetlights. We went to these LEDs. Well, one of the benefits of the old halogens, uh, incandescents, there's a lot, uh, heat comes off that So what they found is the snow wouldn't melt off the streetlight. They had to come up with a new system. I don't know? if they sprayed silicone on there, but suddenly these streetlights were covered in snow. You didn't know what color they were. And that's an example of, hey, we made an energy efficiency decision.

What is the negative impact of that? So- It's kinda like what they've done to the roads. I mean, you notice that the... I don't know, it's, like, five years ago, somebody had the bright idea of putting these, these, uh, uh, like, rumble bumps-

Rumbles, yeah ... right, right on the center line. Yeah. And now, you know, because they... Obviously, what they did is they had some m- machine that compressed the asphalt, and now the roads are all falling apart. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it seems good, you know? Uh, when you, when you veer off a little bit off the center or off the shoulder, I guess it's meant to wake you up. But you're right. Yeah, it's, it's probably makes the roads, uh, break down a little quicker. So... Oh, and on

Route 5 between Avon and Caledonia, I was going over to the accountant's the other day, and, uh, one of my front tires got caught in this... It's basically, like, a ditch now- Mm-hmm ... that runs down the center of the road. Yeah. And it was diffi- And I, I was having trouble steering. Yeah.

Yeah. It gui- guides you in there, right? There's the difference between, uh, what do they say that? A groove and a rut. That's the difference. A groove is fun to be in. A rut is a, a pe- terrible thing to be in. Um,

I had a, an interesting email come through a couple weeks ago, Bob, and it was, it was a little... It was lengthy, and it, it said, uh, just out of the blue, "I'm looking to, uh, uh, have a estimate for a bathroom exhaust fan, and, uh, I want best practices for cold climate performance, air sealing, and moisture control."

Uh, those are all good things. A little background, uh, we've had recurring, uh, ceiling leaks that coincide with snow and ice damming, icicle formation.

Uh, so we want, uh, this bath fan, uh, to be of this high quality. We want it to be, uh, insulated properly. We want it to exhaust out and sealed. And any insulation that's been removed, we want it to be put back. And it was so long that I missed one of the lines that said, "And I want pictures of the work because we just had our attic insulated two weeks ago and it was very expensive."

So- Well ... I was thinking, "Well, why didn't they do the bath fan then?" Yeah. Yeah. Any good company would look at your attic as a system, as we do. Uh, that's the time to do it. So I responded and, and said,

"You know, um, unusual request you have here. Uh, I'm not sure I can do it. Please send over your pre and post blower door pictures, and send over a picture of the air sealing, and send over a picture of the insulation."

And, uh, he responded and said, "I, I... You know, unfortunately, they didn't provide me any of those things." So Really? So he wants that of me, but he didn't want it of his big insulation project he, um, just purchased. So I don't know the company, and if I did, I wouldn't say it online, but, uh, or out, out on the air. And, um, but it, it really just shows when you go to pick a company, what, what are you looking for? And, and I think of our process and our, our really kind of our bill of rights is we're gonna give you, uh, if you sign up for the paperwork, we're gonna provide an assessment of your home and look at all these components.

Uh, if you ask, we're gonna do a 30-minute indoor air quality test on the initial assessment. We're gonna give you photo documentation of the assessment, uh, the pictures that we took of the insulation in the attic, areas you don't climb into.

Then when we do the installation, uh, in an area like an attic, we're gonna take all those pictures. And then on the final inspection, we're gonna take pictures and document the improvement of the blower door and anything else we have. So we provide that all to you as standard practice, uh, because this person, who knows what he got? The only person who knows is the person up in the attic, and apparently that person's not telling. And they're definitely not showing. So It's very strange. I mean, I would think if, uh... I mean, that's a state program, is it not? The blower door thing.

Well, did he get it through a program? Uh... I mean, there's people out there... Not only that, there's people out there that work in the programs that say, "Oh, you don't wanna go through the programs," and, "It's a hassle," and, um... So they kind of avoid it. Uh, one of the benefits of the program is you do get a, uh, uh, opportunity for a third-party quality assurance. So, um, yeah, that's... Really, those are the type of questions you wanna ask of your contractor, what you're gonna provide. Do you have examples of homes that you've done like this? So most of the homes that we get calls for, 95% of them,

I say, "We, we've been to a home just like this almost." You know, there might be an addition here and there. And, uh, usually about once every six months, there's a house, and I'm like, "That architect, can we find him? 'Cause I'd like to, uh, take him up to that attic and show him what was wrong with this house." Uh, uh, but that's really what you wanna ask, um, what you're going to provide. What's your warranty?

Uh, you know, certainly a hard, hard winter this year and a lot of ice, and, uh, there were times we got calls and they said, "You did my house and, and I've got ice." And, and we would look at it and we'd say, "Well, we don't guarantee that you're not gonna have any ice." But if we looked at the, uh, install or they sent us pictures, if there was something we missed, we certainly went back out and fixed those. We had a few of those houses. Um, that's the type of warranty that you have with us. You can call us up. Um, if it's within our realm of, uh, scope of work, we're gonna take care of it. Now, there was other areas where you have an extended cape and it's almost a flat roof Uh, areas we didn't access or areas we said you have to tear down your ceiling to insulate, you know, that's not gonna be within our responsibility. But those are the things that, uh, customers should be looking for. If, if you just look for the price, you may be, uh, re-insulating. You, and you may... And you're not gonna know. Uh, I've had two calls in the past couple weeks of people with eight-year-old roofs that were, uh, entertaining getting new roofs, told that they needed new roofs because there was all this moisture in the home, uh, in the attic, and it was rotting out their roof. I'm, I'm not certain that's accurate on rotting out the roof, but there was definitely moisture on the roof deck. Um, the first one had ductwork in the attic, so ductwork always leaks, so that's adding moisture to the r- the roof. Um, the second one was just kind of a, a strange, uh, structure, uh, where the insulation wasn't in line and the air sealing wasn't done.

Uh, and, and so that was, uh, it's ambient air in the living space that's carrying the moisture to the roof deck. We can, we can really tell pretty quickly whether you- it's a roof leak or it's, uh, environmental from the living space. And when you call out the roofer, what building science does he have? Uh, the, the roofing manufacturer taught him or her the, uh, system of how to install, uh, ice and water shield underlayment and roofing and, uh, s- drip edge and, and things like that. So that might not be the right person that you want to, want to talk to. And, uh, you know, recently we, we had a call, and this really frustrates me. It's a five-year, uh, they just purchased the home five years ago.

It's probably a 40-year-old home. And the roof deck has what I call the magic paint. So the mold remediation companies come in. During a real estate transaction, somebody flags it and says, "There's moisture on the roof deck." They come in with this magic paint. I call it magic paint because it's just covering it up, and it's, it's probably, it's part of mold remediation.

But they spray the paint and say, "You're all good. Buy the house. You, you'll, you'll be fine." They don't solve the moisture source. So the moisture source is the air penetrations or leakage penetrations coming from the living space.

And this particular home, I, we, it's already coming back on the lower, uh, eaves or the lower part of the roof, but all the nails that were sticking through that would've been painted are all rusted now. Wow. So it, uh, the moisture source was not solved.

Uh, and, and to add insult to injury, we looked at the furnace, and it was a single-stage furnace installed by a friend. He actually said he's not a friend anymore- Oh, geez ... because the furnace, we said, "The furnace is twice the size that it needs to be." Uh, and I don't know if somebody else had told him that, but he said, "Yeah,

I haven't, I haven't really talked to that guy in a while." So, uh, you know, people will sell what they get the discount at the shop from. Um, they don't know anything about sizing a piece of equipment, so they just say, "Oh, it's bigger, it's better. Let's put it in."

It is... That is... It's kinda like the difference between taking a 10-minute shower and having 10 gallons pour over you or grabbing five-gallon buckets and just throwing it at you. Yeah. Yeah. Here's a, here's a five-gallon one. Use some soap, and here's another five-gallon one. Um- Yeah, more is not invariably better. Yeah. So, um, so the, you're chasing these rebates. These companies, you know, uh, offer these rebates, as we do, but what are you getting out of that? So that's where we really say the blower door test, uh, you want to look for that. You wanna make sure that you're getting real world documentation, just like you're going to the doctor and you're getting your wei- uh, your, your height, your weight, your blood pressure, and then from there they might, uh, determine some other tests, some blood work, some MRIs, some CT scans, uh, to get some real world conditions of where we're at and where we wanna be in the future and what the, uh, uh, prescription is for making that change. So, uh, it's sad to see when people, uh, make those decisions, but the information's out there online.

Um, most YouTube channels you can find all that stuff. So, uh- Wise Home Energy is the show, uh, with Jeff Flaherty here on The Voice of Liberty. Now, uh, the blower door test, for those... You know, a lot of people, our new listeners, filter in. Is that program still available through NYSERDA and do you still-- We're still paying for that, right? It is. On our utility bills. Yes, there is a lot of fees on our utility bill, and, uh, one of them is the systems benefit charge, and so you're still eligible for that.

They, they now limit it to you can get two a year, so you can go to a different contractor. And, um, some people do, uh, kinda loose and fast, so they won't do the blower door test. There are times when you should not do it, um, if there's a health and safety issue up in the attic, if you have a fireplace, a wood-burning fireplace running, uh, if you have construction going on, if you have the trim off your doors and windows. The, the test'll be so flawed there's no point in doing it at that particular time. You got a room under construction. But whenever possible, we're doing that because it's just telling us the things you wanna fix in the home, that's gonna relate to it. So if you have dusty air, if you have dry air, if you have, uh, humid, uh, uh, problems, humidity problems on your windows, uh, uh, mold and moisture problems in your basement or attic, those things'll, um, be related to the blower door, so we wanna know that number.

Uh, and, and, and it tells us, uh, not only how much is leaking out of your home, but qualitatively it can kinda show us where that leakage is, and the leakage gets higher priorities. The top is the most important part. I always

Drive by these construction sites with the, the plastic wrapped around the scaffolding of the building. And on a, on a day where they got some supplemental heat in there, the top is pushed out and bulged out like a hot air balloon, and the bottom is sucked in. And that's how your house is-- that's how the air is moving through it in the wintertime. It's coming in low, and it's leaving high due to, uh, slight pressures in the home. So to stop that is to air seal the top of the home first, and then the next best spot is the bottom. And air sealing is not, "Oh, I,

I air sealed it," and someone says it out loud. It is documenting that you did the work and then verifying that it worked with a blower door test.

So, um, those are the things that our clients love. Uh, we just had a, uh, we just had a funny, uh, negative review online from a client who had some work done a few years ago and, uh, she kept calling about ice and, and we said, "Send the pictures." And it was through a program and we said, "Yeah, you, you have some icicles that are like pencils hanging off your gutter. You had a skylight.

Um, you'd have to tear down the drywall behind it. You maybe could add some vents to improve this, but these are not, these are not ice dams . These are icicles that you might see on an unheated garage."

Um, so it's actually one of the best, uh, reviews I've ever seen that is negative because it really highlights any customer who wants to get rid of ice dams knows that those aren't ice dams

. Right. Right. Um, so it's- Not, not, not all ice is evil. Yeah. Yeah. So a- and then there's environmental through the sun. If the sun bakes down on your dark roof, it's, it's gonna melt a little and you're gonna have a, a little meltdown to the edge and then it'll freeze. So- You have warm days. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I thought that was kinda comical. Um,

I, uh... Yeah, we, uh, we get some, uh, interesting, uh, ice dam calls in, in some of the homes. Um, it's just the blower door is hard to explain to people. And, and usually when they see it, if they can walk around with us and feel the air moving, um, it really helps them understand it. But what I think people don't understand is that air is moving out of your home constantly. It's constantly moving out of your home. Um, more so the temperature differential. So if it's 60 indoors and 60 outdoors, or

65, there's no temperature differential, so we're not gonna have these pressure differentials. And that's actually, uh, an interesting indoor air quality time of year is that's when the homes kinda get stale. You're not quite at the open the window stage, but you don't really need your, your heating and cooling equipment on.

So, um, and then there's, there's, uh, remedies for that, of how we can, we can add fresh air and, and make sure your indoor air quality is, uh, up to snuff. So, uh, the, the process is pretty simple.

Um, you call up, you fill out a one-page report. You provide, uh... it's a release, um, for your energy bills, and then you provide your energy bills to us. Uh, we fill out an extra step where we really find out what you're looking to solve. If this is your forever home, this is a great time to make, um, the home perform properly.

And, uh, then we come out, do the assessment. Uh, you know, with the ice dams this past year, people wanted us out the next day and probably to correct it the following day. This is, this is a process a lot of companies, um, are struggling, uh, because the rebates have changed so much, uh, and they're not-- their skill set is not fixing homes, they're chasing rebates. So we wanna fix homes.

Um, and we do that by, by coming out and doing that assessment. You can help them with a rebate though, yes? Absolutely. Yeah. We get that all pre-approved. We start with just a little, a proposal and say, "Hey, this is what we think the rebate'll be. You gotta give us a little time. We gotta get the state to approve it."

It goes through some magical portal and, uh, uh, and, and it's instantaneous. We take it right off the top.

Uh, and then we offer financing. Uh, so really these bills are gonna keep going up. People really don't realize that the ice dams they're making is energy loss. The reason their bills are so high is that heat is leaving the home before you've had a chance to enjoy it. Uh, you paid for it and now you're paying it to melt snow, to create ice, to make damage, uh, to possibly have water come inside your home. So that's not a good investment in my mind.

Um, and you know, I, I had a client recently, it was just an estimate on a big, uh, Culver Road, uh, uh, up in the city of Rochester, and big old three-story, those, those monster homes, and finished, uh, third story and, and they've got ice and some of the chunks on the ground. I got there after it was all melted, but there was this chunk, um, I'd say bigger than a curling stone if we still got our Olympics, uh, uh, memory in place.

And it was... I couldn't even move it with my foot. You know, a slight kick and I'm thinking, "Hanging off your roof. If someone walks by, who, who's paying for this damage?"

Um, and so I gave him a quote and, uh, he said, "We're gonna, we're gonna, you know, uh, go elsewhere."

And, uh, I, I know what that means. That usually means we're not gonna do anything or we, we found s- a cheaper guy who's gonna blow some stuff in. So I'll put that on my whiteboard in the office and next winter I'll drive by and, um, you know, uh, note if the, if that quick fix did it. And I, and I doubt it was.

It was a little... Well, it was a little complicated, uh, structure as these finished third floors, uh, usually are. Uh, another one I had like that who called for massive ice- And by the time I got there, it was gone. But luckily, people take some pictures of it. He, uh, had a third floor finished attic, and, uh, you can sort of see if people have had energy audits.

Um, they can kind... It kind of shows up that maybe they had one in the past. So, uh, he didn't mention it, and I said, "Well, you know, you have ductwork in one of your attics, a knee wall." I said, "The insulation's all done wrong. It's, it's no question you've got problems here." And I didn't walk around all the house. Uh,

I was really, um... It was just on the way home, so I stopped and did an estimate 'cause I sort of felt like this was maybe a waste of time. And, uh, and then come to find out, he's been through the program, uh, and no one's, no one mentioned that the, the attic's like this. No one did a blower door. And then he goes, "Oh, my heat pump." And I go outside, and these heat pumps, these condensers are extraordinarily expensive.

And there was some of the ice left in these chunks, Bob, where, I mean, uh, 50, 100 pounds, they dug into the ground. Wow. And I'm thinking, "You're risking your- Yeah ... heat pump."

You know, I don't know how insurance works. I don't know if they're gonna, you know, cover this thing if this 100-pound ice falls next winter on your heat pump. If the driveway's close enough to your car. Yeah. And, and to say nothing of your family walking by. Well, that's why he called, 'cause it was the driveway side he was concerned about.

Sure. But... And I'm thinking, yeah, your health and safety, absolutely. How about, you know, the thousands of dollars you just invested a year or two ago in this heat pump?

Uh, crazy. And, you know, who knows? And then the insulation, uh, uh, insurance companies will be like, "Oh, it's ice, and there's water. Just replace the fiberglass insulation."

So, okay, we'll be back in a couple years with... So we don't even do insurance claims like that 'cause they want like for like. Most people outside the industry don't understand air leakage, uh, and many in, in the industry don't understand air leakage.

So we do. So this had to have been a bad year for ice, I'm thinking. It was a terrible year for ice. People, uh, should realize if you have massive ice hanging off your roof, those are gonna be... If you use air conditioning, that's gonna be the hot summer sun baking down.

It's gonna now cost you electric on your air conditioning. So it really makes sense to fix it from a structural durability standpoint.

It makes sense to fix it from a health and safety standpoint. We don't want water coming in our home. We don't want ice falling on our, uh, loved ones or, uh, pets or cars. Uh, so there's a lot of reasons. And then the energy part of it. You don't wanna keep paying to melt this ice 'cause it's the same, uh, money you're spending to, uh, try to air condition a second floor that is never gonna cool. So, you know, just a home I was in yesterday, "Oh, yeah, it's so bad, we have, uh, window air conditioning." And I said, "And you have central air conditioning, right?" And they said,

"Yeah." And I said, "Well, that's-" That's why. "... that's the insulation and air sealing." Gotcha. Hey, we're running right down to the end of the show here, Jeff Flaherty. Uh, let's give them some contact information and, uh, tell them, uh, what, uh, what your company's all about-

Yeah ... what the name of it is and all that. Yeah. So the, the contact, uh, phone number is 585-270-5836. WiseHomeEnergy.com. Lots of information there. Have a YouTube channel. Can do some self-education and see what you wanna do to fix your home and make it more comfortable, durable, and health and s- uh, safety-wise. And save some money, get it done right. Jeff Flaherty, thanks so much.

Good to see you again. Another Wise Home Energy Show on the WYSL, WLEA stations. Get the podcast, WYSL1040.com.