What Jeff Would Fix If He Ran the Programs

It's time once again for the Wise Home Energy Show, the radio program that tells you what it's all about from its name, along with Jeff Flaherty. Pure energy.

And here's the host of the show. Hey, Bob. It's great to be- Hey, Jeff. Great to be back here. Appreciate the, uh, introduction. Always. Always a pleasure. Very informative, folks. You're gonna like this. That's what we're gonna try to do today. I think we're gonna be successful at it.

I predict it. So today we're gonna call the show, what would, uh, Jeff Flaherty. do if he ran the programs or ran the world? Well, either the, the two. Um, so- WWJFD

IHRTP. There. There we go. There we go. I like it. I don't know what that stands for, but, uh, it's gotta have a nice acronym ring. Uh, um, but, uh, when we talk of programs, we talk of NYSERDA, so New York State Energy. Research and Development.

Um, there's also a program called the Federal Weatherization Program that also, uh, uh, does some, um, uh, no-cost insulation for, uh, income-qualified people. And then there's, uh, utility clean heat programs where they have incentives for, uh, electrification-type measures, so, uh, air source heat pu- pumps, ground source heat pumps. And, uh, uh, just over the years of, of working in these programs, they're great for incentivizing these upgrades. Uh, but I think there's opportunities for improvements. And, uh, really the reason why I say this. is some of the homes... Uh, I'll give you a couple examples of some of the things I've run into recently. So we've, uh, in the HVAC world? or, the home service wor- world, there's been a lot of, uh, um, private equity that's come into the market. They've decided that this is a great, uh, venue to play in, and, and there's nothing wrong with that, but, private equity is gonna have some, uh, stringent, uh, uh, um, recovery on their investments. They're gonna have some heavy growth goals and, uh, and home performance is a complicated business. There's a lot of pieces and puzzles go into it, uh, similar to getting a doctor's visit for kind of an unknown ailment. Uh, it' really takes a lot of digging sometimes to, uh, find out what's going on in a home and how we, how we fix it. But, some, of the homes we've, we've stumbled in recently, um, a 2006-built, uh, ranch, uh, home that, uh...

Even, even though it sounds new, it could be, uh, improved quite a bit. When we climbed up in the attic, uh, we pull back the insulation, and the top of the wall, which is called the top plate, is not air sealed.

And, um, the client called us to inspect it, and, uh, they had gone through a program and, and, and, you know, we just said it wasn't air sealed properly. We just showed them the pictures.

And we, we can't really do anything after that except charge them to fix it. Uh, and so, uh, when we, when we see this, we think, "Ah, these programs, maybe they're not always as great as they can be." So, the programs, are great, but maybe the people operating them, uh, have a less understanding of how they' should work, uh, or there's less oversight at the company.

So, um, that was one example of, of just a house. And, another one we' went up to, same thing. We-- Uh, they' had just had their home insulated like a year prior, and, we just say, "Well, we have to see the attic." So we climb up in the attic, we look at, the top plates, and, we say, "It wasn't air sealed." And we tell the, the client, and they said, "Well, let me look at my contract." And, oh, it, says that they're supposed to air seal the top plate. So she calls the contractor and, um, they tell her that, um, "Well, we, don't really normally air seal attics if there's already insulation in it."

And, uh, that's kind of a, a mind blower there because that, uh, is a terrible policy. It. also violates any of the program policies that, you're supposed to air seal, uh, before you add insulation. It is, it is definitely a requirement, uh, in building performance.

Um, and then they also told her, "You don't wanna make the house too tight." So that, that's a- That's a myth that we've certainly tried to, uh, you know, uh, uh- That's one of our favorites here on, the show. Yeah. Yeah. Your house can be too tight, you know? Yeah. And then no one ever says that about airplanes, you know? Like we never say we, you know, I, "I'm afraid this airplane's too tight." Um, we sort of want it, sealed when we're up there at 40,000 feet. I don't want this Ocean Liner to be too buoyant. Yeah. So we, we want it tight, and, then we wanna control, um, the airflow in the home and, the, the cleaning of the air and, things of that nature. So, that-- those were, those were humorous lines. Uh, uh, but those are the type of things we're seeing. So recently I was at the Buffalo

Home Show and I noticed that, uh, a lot of contractors there, no one is, mentioning blower doors.

Um, so we are the only company who is, you know, has a picture of a blower door at the, uh, at our booth. And, uh, one of the contractors had on there furnaces, boilers, and ductless heat pumps. So what that means is those ductless are, uh, they're wall units, and they' have a place in, in, uh, HVAC, uh, world.

Uh, but the better, uh, system is always ducted. So ducted can distribute the air better, it can filtrate the air better, it allows adding of humidification or dehumidification, and it also allows, um, um, cleaning of or adding fresh air. So we know that these ducted heat pumps work. The-- When they don't, the reason people don't, uh, think they work, is 'cause they're not sized properly to, the home. So that's one of the things that we- Um, we do very well. And, uh, I had a home, uh, a client call that had, uh, some work done about four years ago, had an air source heat pump put in, uh, ducted and some insulation, and she said, uh, her bills are very high. And so we had her send over the bill, and it's a 1,700 square foot home, and it was built in 1965, and her yearly electric bill is $1,400. So that is heating, cooling, uh, refrigerator, lights, or, TV, whatever other electric-using appliance she is using, this is what she's using in the home. So I know people that have electric bills like this, and they don't heat and cool their home with it. So clearly it worked. The dollars are up for the actual unit cost.

Um, so really you're talking 120 bucks, $117 for the whole year, a month. And on the, on the gas side, she has zero therms used, but $230, uh, in gas. And so she has a gas stove that she must barely use a therm for the whole year. So if she-

That's annually ... so if she would get rid of that gas stove, she would save $230 a year. They pull the meter, and it would pay for a gas stove in, you know, three or four years, depending on what model she wants. So, so we know this works, um, and the proof is there in the pudding. Uh, so why isn't everybody doing this? Um, certainly, yeah, budget can be the case. You're not gonna insulate, uh, and change out the HVAC in every single home.

But when we, when we stage it, and we do it in the right order, we know it, we know it can work. So, um, so if I were in charge, I'm hoping I get the call after this show.

Um, but- Yeah. It's coming. I, I promise you. But really what I would do if I ran these programs is, uh, I would make each contractor upload all the pro- uh, pictures that, uh, required on the job site. So these are exterior pictures, interior pictures, testing pictures of any equipment, and of course, blower door pictures. Hopefully blower doors are being done.

So those pictures, we now live in this digital age. They can be geotagged to the home, timestamped to the day you took them, and we need, uh, to really categorize or catalog the, uh, the actual conditions when we, when we did the assessment, when we do the install work, and then when we do the final inspection. It's just, it's so easy to do, um, to, to capture those pictures and then to upload it. So they really should have these pictures. They require some pictures, but I, I think, uh, I think more pictures should be required, and they should be geotagged to that location.

Um, and then blower door test, Bob. I know you love those blower door tests as much as I do. Who doesn't? And, uh, that measures the air leakage of the home. So we, uh, we have a lot of people, contractors that maybe don't believe in it or have found a way to not do them or don't, um, don't like the 40-pound blower door that they have to take into the home.

But we know that test is so critical for, uh, comfort, for energy loss, for durability, for avoiding mold, and for properly sizing the equipment in the home. And what they... So there's reasons to not do the blower door. So when, uh, programs see companies not doing them, they should put a little red flag next to those companies and say, "What's going on? How are their results?"

Uh, we, we kind of model, um, homes' energy savings and, and then we don't really go back and find out how well, it's saved. So that's sort of like doing a budget for the year saying, "We got 100,000 coming in. We're gonna spend 60,000 on this. Let's put 10,000 in our retirement plan." And then at the end of the year, never checking if we did that because what we probably did is we spent 130,000, and we didn't put any in our retirement plan.

It's the verification after the fact. And it, it may be hard to do, but I think all the data's there, uh, for these, um, programs to look at this data on a sporadic basis and maybe spot-check the companies that are, uh, struggling a little bit. Let me just ask a question here. Uh, i-in your experience, is there a substitute for the blower door test? Is there an other methodology whereby you can, uh, quantify what's needed in those homes, or is the blower door pretty much the gold standard? So it is kind of the, the gold standard. I've been trying to develop secondary ones. So the, the big thing that prevents you from doing it, if there's construction going on, if the wall's ripped down, you're, you're just gonna have false numbers, so it's not really useless. But we're talking about pressures, and there's ways to extrapolate and back into it.

So if your bath fan, um, you can measure the cubic foot per minute your bath fan, uh, is exhausting out of the home. So say, it's exhausting 120 cubic foot per minute. You can take a pressure, uh, reading between indoors and outdoors and see how well, it, uh, depressurizes the home. Maybe it's minus five pascals. You can take that information and, kind of extrapolate how much the blower door or how much the home is leaking.

So that's one of the things that I've suggested that they' should do is, is, um, make... If the, if the contractor is kind of gaming the system by not doing the blower door, then put these other requirements on them. Measure the bath fans, um, maybe require them to, um, have more pictures or just upload the, uh, pictures. Um,

I've been thinking that, maybe a lighter... So we go to a pressure of 50 pascals, but if you went to a lighter pressure Uh, the threat is if there's asbestos possibly in the home, would that' move it around? Well, we have a, furnace usually in a home that, is blowing at a very high rate of speed. So in my opinion, if we already have asbestos particles moving around the home, they're moving around the home all the time.

So I don't think the blower door at a lower pressure would be any worse than the furnace fan turning on. So that, that is a great question. I do think the industry needs to, uh, solve that problem, uh, because it, it's, it's such a big deal that people are not doing it.

Um, and you' take that number and then we look at the Manual J calculation. So a Manual J is, a calculation for how much, um, uh, heat you're gonna need on' your coldest day or how. much cooling you're gonna need on your, on your warmest day for your particular region. So that's kind of similar to you got two houses on the street, they look exactly the same and one is having a party with 5 people coming over and one's having a party with 20 people coming over. Do you buy the same amount of food for each party?

The houses look exactly the same, but the load inside the home is gonna be different based on, you know, what's being-- what's going on in the home. So that Manual J calculation is huge and really one of the things the industry has, has found is that

90% of HVAC equipment is oversized. So- Wow ... um, you add that and then also

90% of homes in the US are under-insulated. Uh, and then I recently went to a venting, uh, seminar, an attic ventilation seminar and they said

90% of attics are under-ventilated. So by my math, Bob, there's a 270% chance we can upgrade your home. I mean, I think that that adds up, doesn't it? That's absolutely, and you are listening to the Wise

Home Energy Show with Jeff Flaherty, uh, the voice of wisdom here. And, uh, if you're cold in your home or you're uncomfortable, warm in your home, uh, pick up the phone and call...

585-270-5836. And, and really that's a great time to, to say that anybody in New York State can get a no-cost assessment.

So all you have to do is fill out a one-page piece of paper and, and really going back to that, um, um, you know, analyzing the energy usage afterwards. What you're really signing when you sign that is you agree that these programs can look at your utility bills for the next two years. They wanna see that the difference, uh, that is proposed being made will actually make it. So you submit your bills. It's not Big

Brother. They don't even have the resources to really check up on that many homes. Um, we find that we have the resources to, to spot check when we, uh, look at a particular home and, and are, and, and are comfortable with the customer choosing all these, uh, good options. Then we go back and, and we look at it and that's-- We know? the proof works, uh, when we get to look at it a year down the road. So, um, you fill out that one-page application, you submit your utility bills. That's similar to... That's a starting point. That's kind of like when you walk into the doctor's office and you, you step on the scale, you get your weight and you get your, your height. We got a baseline. Let's-- Then let's start digging into the assessment from there. And, and that assessment, uh, is highly visual. We're climbing up in attics. We're looking at equipment. Takes about two hours.

Uh, we elect to add the blower door on for no cost if we'd like. If we're in the home now? and we feel that the home, uh, has issues and the client has expressed some concerns, then we, uh, we will typically add that blower door on' for no cost. We, we, won't really provide blower door reports and things of that nature, but at least we have a baseline of where we're, where we're at. It's the stepping on the scale when you go to the doctor so. So a quick question. Uh, uh, going back here earlier, uh, in the program, you had a case history about a 1965-built home, uh, about 1,700 square feet, and their total energy costs for the year, 1,700 bucks. 1,400. 14- 1,400 ... I'm sorry. I, I mixed up the square footage. That's right. But you added the, but you added the gas. You know, they were, using gas for no particular reason. Well, it was $230 more. Yeah, right. So- For a gas stove ... $1,400. And, and ironically, she thought her bills were high.

Yeah. So. It's all perspective. So how, how atypical or typical is that? Um- How achievable would the average, uh... Can, can you get a lot of people to that, uh, level, you feel? I, I think you can. I mean, certainly, uh, it's funny to parse these things out. Um, so she was a senior citizen, so we're not gonna have a lot of the extra appliances, right? Um, she's probably just got the TV. But it is achievable. And so if you've done that, today, where will the energy bills be in five years? Where will they be in 10 years? Oh, the mind reels.

Um, if it's anything like the housing market, it's gonna go, it's gonna go up, um, you know, exponentially. And, and, that's why this needs to be done right and it, and... So we get, you know, we-- what I was saying before is we get a lot of calls. Uh, if your home's been treated and you, and then you're calling us for comfort issues, that's kind of a telltale sign that maybe the treatment didn't work. Now, we always preface that with if we insulate your attic, the attic is the most important part, and we insulate it and people say, "Well, how much am

I gonna save?" Your, your furnace is probably already oversized. It is w- w-- The Manual J calculation has fudge factors built into it, so it's already oversizing it and most contractors just kinda say, "Well, I'm nervous. Let me upsize it from there."

And very soon as the technology Uh, morphs. We're gonna have this data through your thermostat that'll really tell us on the coldest degree how oversized your furnace is.

We will be able to size equipment. We can now, but no- not many homes have these thermostats or these data loggers. So we'll have that information. And who wants to swap out two-year-old equipment? It's just not, it's not reasonable, uh, to think that somebody's gonna spend that kind of money. You're better taking a risk and getting the right size according to Manual

J, taking a little risk and, and... Uh, we get that a lot is we'll go and there'll be three quotes, and they'll be like, "Well, yours is, you know, a 40,000 BTU and everybody else's is a 60." I'm like, "It's not apples to apples, you know? We won't put in, the 60. We're walking away. Um, we don't want the complaints in, two years." Um, so it's, it's... People are just guessing.

Um, the, uh... They've been guessing since, you know, HVAC, has been invented- Yeah ...in homes. So, um- Technology didn't exist. A-and, uh, so, so most of the homes in America, oversized with HVAC equipment and under-insulated. So there must be, like, a cultural thing there, you know? Like with among general contractors who say, "Well, you know, let's err on the side," no pun intended, "of, uh, let's, a bigger furnace. You know, then, then we make sure that we're covered." It really is, and they're not understanding that, um, that to oversize it creates problems. And a lot of this stuff, um... So the, if... Let's just take a furnace, for example. We can have a single-stage furnace, uh, so it has one output. That's it. We can have a two-stage furnace, uh, where to have a low stage and a high stage, which we consider considerably better. In fact, I think the single-stage furnaces in these programs, uh, should be completely banned. It, it is just, if they're already oversizing it and then the single stage is there, it's, it's, it's already gonna be oversized. So the- they should ban the single-stage, uh, equipment.

Uh, and, and think of it in terms of if you were in the city and your, your car only went 55 miles per hour, imagine racing from red light to red light, you know?

Yeah, with your foot on the floor. Yeah. You'd probably be a little sick, and everybody in the car would be a little sick. So it's, you want that slower, even ramp-up. You only need to go 30 in the city.

Um, and that's that two-stage or that modulating equipment that runs at a, a, a more reasonable, uh, what you type need output.

And if you, if you take the risk, how many hours of the year is it really cold? A couple of space heaters for a hundred bucks will probably supplement whatever possible, uh, deficit you have, which I doubt you will have a deficit. So, uh, and the, and those comfort issues come back, but the usage comes back because the, it's... When the two... When... You can put Energy Star on a furnace, but if it's the wrong size and doesn't match up well with your insulation and air leakage of your home, it's not gonna match. So, uh, and that's, that's c- brings me to the next thing, is really they should reward downsizing of equipment.

Um, so a- and the data's there, right? If we have the square foot, if we have the initial gas and electric usage, and we have the initial size of the equipment, let's reward downsizing. Um- Even if it's two years old.

Yeah. You know, I just think they should, uh, have a little extra incentive. Um, so if the contractors are still afraid of it and not doing the Manual J, then you're rewarding the contractors that are taking the risk of, uh... And it's not really a risk, it's a calculation, um, in, in downsizing the equipment. And, and really that's kind of my final, um, really suggestion, is they should, the program should analyze... So they have quality assurance programs where they'll randomly go out to the home and just go through kind of a checklist of, uh, uh, what was done. So they look up in the attic, they see, uh, 18 inches of insulation. "Okay, that was done." They see the new furnace. "Okay, that was done."

But the... One is there's no one to really review that Manual J calculation. There's no one maybe to properly say, "Hey, this, this was done, but the data inputs were wrong and it's not gonna fit that house." Um, so I think to o- to, to reward, it's kind of the carrot versus the stick, a quality assurance visit. If something's wrong, you get written up, and then you have to go back and fix it. So that's the stick. I would think the programs would be better, suited to, uh, use carrots. And how they can do that is take jobs. Uh, maybe the contractor submits 10 or 20 jobs that they're proud of. They go back and look at them for the year, and they look at the energy reduction, and for that they give them a bonus or, or split the bonus, one for the contractor, one for the customer that took that risk on doing the whole comprehensive project. So they might do that upfront.

They might give you the rebate upfront. But really if they did it at the end, uh, you know, for good, you know, it's kind of like getting a... Are we gonna reward a child for taking the test? Uh, which is great, fine. They took the test, they showed up, is half the battle, but i- if you reward them for having the good score, they get to, you know, choose the college they want to go to, and that's really at the end. Right. We're rewarding for the actual results. And so I think they could create systems that reward for actual results, which would allow the contractors that are struggling to stow- start modeling the contractors that are successful.

So- So who would be overseeing these programs? What would the enforcement mechanism be? NYSERDA maybe, or? So NYSERDA would, would have to, uh, uh, look after their program, and they use implementers to do that. And I think a lot of it could really be done from a data analytics standpoint. You, you p- you pull that data and plug that into, uh, some programs to say, "Hey, we have some anomalies." We're gonna have some anomalies on the overusage, on the underusage, but hey, contractors, uh, keep, you know, coming up with really good results, and some contractors keep coming up with Poor results.

And, uh, uh, and then on the federal weatherization program that's, um, managed by each state, um, and that's the Department of, uh, Housing and Community Renewal, they would have to handle that.

And then the utilities, uh, that seems like a home run. They, they own the data. They have the, they have the meters. Um, so they, they run the clean heat rebates. So they, they could do it. And, um,

I just think, uh, we're in a da- we're in an era of, of data and measurements and, uh, just to, to gas...

It, it's great, we gas that, uh, we're gonna improve the home, but if we're failing on improving the home, the customer is-- has a bad taste, so we're gonna say, "Oh, energy efficiency doesn't work." Well, it does work when it's done a certain way, and, um, it-- we know how to do it.

And so it gives a bad taste for the client, and then the utilities or the, the programs are, are kind of putting up numbers saying, "Ah, we, we completed this many jobs." Um, what does that mean? You know?

It's... I-i... We can install as many furnaces if we, as we want, but if we have 50% of those clients uncomfortable and not saving money, that's, that's a, that's a bad, uh, mark on the industry and, and, and their particular program.

So, um, so ironically, you know, these are the things that we do. Yeah, it's, it's self-serving that I tell you we take all these pictures, we do these tests. We kind of tell you, um, what, which, what path you should take. If... And it might be staged. We understand the budgets, uh, are in play in everybody's home, and, um, maybe you should stage it. But, uh, if you're gonna do a furnace, maybe you should take the risk and downsize it now in case you, uh, when you, you need to acquire the, the budget to do the insulation in a year or two. Take the risk, downsize your equipment now, and, uh, and then when you're ready to, to insulate, uh, y- then the home will work together. But if you throw in the, the big HVAC system now, and, and then you insulate in a year, yeah, now, now you gotta re- you gotta redo your furnace. So it just doesn't make sense.

And you can, you can help them plan all this too. Yeah. I mean, you're happy to do that. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it, it's a tried and trued system. Um, we don't, um, we don't try to be everything to everyone. We really wanna...

No one wants to buy a furnace and no one wants to insulate, but if you wanna fix a problem, make your home comfortable, durable, then call Wise Home Energy at 585-270-5836.

Just pick up the phone, as they say. Give them the, uh, phone number one more time, Jeff. Sure. It's call or text at 585-270-5836. The Wise Home Energy Show on WYSL. Thanks for listening. Get the podcast at wysl1040.com. See you next time.