Pests, Blower Doors, and Why Your Diagnosis Is Probably Wrong

It's the Wise Home Energy Show on the WYSL stations. And our good friend,

Jeff Flaherty, is here in studio once again. Jeff? Hey, Bob. Looking to pump up the energy here today on the Wise Home Energy Show. Absolutely. And keeping warm in your home, or cool, depending on what your preference is. Correct. Yeah, we just want you to be comfortable in your home.

It's the, it's your favorite place. It's where you spend most of your time. Yeah, so why be uncomfortable in your home? That's right. In the summer, why be hot and sweaty? Why be cold and clammy in the, in the winter? And, uh, a lot of health, uh, consequences flow from that, right? Absolutely. Yeah. We, uh, we really focus on the whole house when we go into homes and, and how those different parts come together.

You know, we're... Currently, we're getting a lot of calls, uh, on the, uh, inflation, uh, reduction act. And, um, when they started that or, or implemented that bill, it' all went down to the states. So a lot of it hasn't been sorted out. So what I can do is give you the quick little blurb that the $1,200 tax credit for, uh, insulation and energy efficiency upgrades is available, and there's also $150 energy audit tax credit. But really those are the two things that are settled, if we call it settled science. Uh, but the, uh- Love that. But the, uh... A lot of the other things have been delegated to the states, and they haven't, uh, New York State hasn't quite, uh, made their final ruling. So- They got their act here.

Yeah. Oh, they're too busy passing a budget. So once that comes- $228 billion. Right. So once that comes together, we will return and discuss that in details. Hopefully, that'll be this year, but right now the focus on the $1,200 tax credit and, uh, $150 energy audit credit. So inquiring minds, uh, you may know the answer to this and maybe not because you're not a government type, but, uh, how do we get from inflation reduction to giving people $1,200 each?

Well, I think it was mislabeled. It's called the Inflation Production Act. But they didn't, uh Thank you. Right. They didn't really know how to name it. So yeah, that, just wanted to get that point out there. That's key. We're getting a lot of calls, and it's just not there yet.

But, uh, but- But it's in the, in the pipeline though, right? Yeah. It's there and, and the state has to... The, really the problem is the state gets to set the, the, uh, rules, but they have to make it coincide with the federal guidelines. So it's, it's a little confusing and it was really made for... A lot of the heat pump stuff was made designed for southern climates and, and, and hot climates, and it's a different type of heat pump electrification up here.

So no one size fits all program, and that's what we're trying to sort out. But, uh, but... And that's why we advise just go do the whole house assessment. Look at the whole house, find out what your house needs, and then figure out how the rebates work into that. Because- Right. Get ready for it, right? Yeah. Because it's just, um, y- you wanna, you wanna make sure you go about it the right way. Don't go chase the money 'cause you'll end, up putting in the wrong things in your house. And really, I had a story.

I think the last time I was on, we, we talked about a gentleman who, um, who had, uh, purchased wall insulation from us. We re- you know, suggested doing the blower door test. And, uh, um, then when he was, when, when he was done, he wasn't happy with, um, the results. And, you know, I kind of said, "Well, you, you didn't do the blower door test.

Um, you know, I'm gonna come down since you contracted with us and, uh, and do the test." And, uh, he had some dogs, and we couldn't get above a garage or in a garage. And when I did this blower door test, uh, and we isolated the room above the garage, the blower door adjusted 'cause it's, it ki- it's an advanced diagnostic where we separate the zones. And he instantly knew that it was the area above his garage, but he had not let our project manager in that area. Um, we didn't do any testing, so we couldn't design the priority and, and give it to him. We had to just go with what he wanted, which was wall insulation. And there was nothing wrong with doing wall insulation. It's just we would've recommended doing this, uh, garage area first. And it's so important to do that whole house, uh, approach, and it's important to do some testing. And that blower door testing, uh, as I beat that drum, is such an important test. And, and when we look at that whole house, we're looking at insulation and, and HVAC and how. they all come together. And we want durability, but we also want indoor air quality. And one of the, things we've discovered over the years when we go into homes, we see a lot of pests in the homes.

And that' brings me to the gentleman on my right. here. Uh, he is a persistent person. Mm-hmm. But he's not a pest. He is the head- ... of Rochester Pest Pros. Jason DiBiase. Jason, welcome here. Thanks, Jeff, for having me. Appreciate it. Bob, thank you too. A pleasure to have you in the studio.

Appreciate it. So we, you know, we go into homes, and we see, uh, critters in, in attics and crawl spaces, and we're recommending improvements, but some- sometimes we're saying, "Uh, you gotta go do something with the pest first." And that, uh, you know, we call a guy like Jason and, and say, "Jason, we need your help. Can you, can you tell us?" And Jason, what are the some of the things we see or that, you know, you see in attics and basements that, are, uh, of concerns to customers and, should be? So a lot of times when we' get calls, from your guys, for example, um, we get a call where, "Hey, we found a bat in the, attic. Hey, we saw some moist droppings. We found a mouse. We're finding stink bugs. We're finding all these other things."

Um, it's not uncommon to see that happen. When it does happen, you gotta deal with it. Um, coming to your point of view as, you know, insulation and, in- insects and rodents are, they're very similar. Um, we find them in a lot of the areas that you guys are working in as far as home energy companies and things like that. Um, you know, it's the easiest exit point for rodents and insects to get into because they're d- undisturbed.

There's nobody up there bothering them. They can come and go as they want. There's nobody in the way and, and, um, m- m- it's easy to do. But fixing those problems are, are really simply, um, really easy to do. There's different things we can do, either a spray or, an inspection, but it comes down to the same thing that you guys do. You know, we have to inspect the area, see what's going on, and see how it's impacting the house, the in- indoor air quality. Um, insects and rodents can carry a lot of different diseases, and it can make some people sick if you have asthma. Um, there's just a lot of different things that go. So, you know, working with a company like you guys and benefiting and partnering with you guys is, is, is, uh, really good, and we've been able to help some of your customers and- Yeah ...solve their problems. Absolutely.

And, you know, some of those, uh, you know, indoor air quality things, sometimes the pests, we can smell 'em, right? Uh, uh, they get the bigger ones. But some of those smaller pests, they really create some indoor air quality problems for, asthma.

I mean, what are the type of, you know, things that you're seeing that really have triggers for asthma and indoor air quality? So the, the biggest thing about... that we see a lot of times is, is the droppings from the animal, whether if it's from a squirrel, whether it's from a raccoon, whether it's from mice, from bats.

Um, it's, it's really hard to say, but it's the droppings is what makes it up, and it's not just a little bit here' or there, but it's the, it's the amount that you're seeing consistently.

Um, and then you do the right thing. You take care of it. You treat it. Um, I always say this to all of my guys, "If they can't get in, they can't be a problem." And the thing that benefits us working together, especially with doing bats and stuff like that, is the openings that you guys are closing in the dormer pockets, and air-gap sealing, and all the different things that you do, goes a long way with what we're doing to try to not let them in, you know? Um, uh, we start from a process called IPM, which is integrated pest management, and the basis of doing that in all pest control is essentially inspection. And once you do that, then you come up with a game plan, and it's no different than when you guys come out to do an assessment. What is your inspection like, Jeff? The, the blower door, right? Because that's the key to everything. Right. It tells you where you're losing air quality. It tells you where you're losing energy. Mm. A lot of those areas are very common area for bees.

You know, people get, uh, around a fireplace, for an example. You know, they're calling you and you're doing an energy audit, and you're sealing these things and this and that, and guess what?

There's an opening. If you guys close the opening, the bees and all these other things, stink bugs, they're not gonna be able to get in. Right. So you make it a challenge, and i- it's just important that you do a really good inspection.

Excellent. We, you know, we find we... a lot of people wanna get a rim joist, uh, insulated. Great idea, right? Yeah. So we go in, and for decades we were putting in fiberglass in there. Mm-hmm. We pull the fiberglass back, and either through poor grading, drainage, or because fiberglass was not a good air seal, we get moisture in the wood. And, and that moisture, um, that's a pest entry point, but what is moisture and food, uh, for rodents, right? Yeah. Not only rodents, but with... if there's an issue with moisture, carpenter ants. Yes. Carpenter ants love it, you know? They're going after the wood to eat the, to get the sugars, the proteins, the starches, all the stuff that they need.

If you've got a water issue, uh, you know, and wood damage, uh, you're inviting the insects into your house. Right. You know? And a lot of times people don't discover these, these damages and these different things until they're doing services with our company or with your company, you know?

Um, you know, it's about taking care of the customer- Right ...is the key. So we, we come in and we offer getting rid of the grade area, improving the grading. We don't want bulk water from the gutter come down into the basement. Um, but what are some, you know, simple, uh, uh, tricks that people can do themselves to, uh, make sure that they're not giving a food they don't want in the home? Obviously, I mean, sealing openings around, you know, electrical wiring, cable lanes, uh, plumbing issues, things like that. Um, just doing a real good inspection, making sure that there's good airflow, there's good air circulation.

Um, indoor air quality, if there's a rodent that, you know, you got an issue with moisture, for example, in your basement and you have a drop ceiling, um, a mouse dies, you're going to get the odor. Right. Right? And if you've got stagnant air in your house, you know, it's gonna be there for a minute.

Um, but just follow up. Good inspection, good communication, you know, and just be aware of your surroundings. Right.

Absolutely. You know? And, and we offer different packages. I mean, rodent packages. We offer exterior spray packages for the different crawling and flying insects. I mean, there's a lot of things that we can do.

Right. And Bob, this is really where I foresee, um, the coming, um, uh, maybe housing crisis, right? So we, we certainly have a shortage of housing, but as we build these homes tighter, um, we have kind of the law of unintended consequences. If we're not monitoring, uh, indoor air quality, if we're not monitoring, uh, humidity, we're, we're really welcoming an environment for pests. So even these new build homes need, uh, you know, uh, someone to inspect and someone to, you know, treat and remediate, uh, issues like this because asthma, we're in the home, it's a tighter home. Asthma cases are on the rise, and your home should be a health and s- uh, healthy and safe place to live and, and spend time. No question about it. And, uh, another important thing here is to keep our eye on the ball, so to speak. You know, we want the, the objective is good, you know, a, a good environment in the home. Yeah. Uh, good, uh, safe air to breathe- Yep ... uh, safe for pets, safe for your belongings, and so forth. So that's why, you know, with all res- due respect here, that we say, you know, let Jeff and, uh, and company do their job. Uh, uh, 'cause, uh, you, you mentioned at the beginning of the program, you always get these folks who say, "Well, you know, uh,

I think I want more insulation in the walls." Right. Or, "I think I want to, uh, insulate the floor 'cause the floor feels clammy." Right. Or, uh, you know, something, uh, upstairs is, uh, too warm in the summertime, uh, versus downstairs, so I think we need a bigger, uh- Uh, air conditioner Exactly Uh, those are not necessarily the solutions and f- actually frequently are not the solutions and will be counterproductive, right? Right. Absolutely.

Just- I, uh, I was, uh, uh, you know, it... And I'm guilty of it myself. I recently went to the doctor. I feel like I really don't go to the doctor much, and I, I had this ailment, and I do what everybody does, right? I'm on the internet and WebMD, and I've got this diagnosis down. Doc- doctor Google. Yeah. I just need to, you know, tell the doctor w- how to fix me, right? I mean, his half a million dollars in, uh, you know, student loans and his 10 years of, uh, education doesn't mean anything. I've spent 10 minutes online. They love that, by the way. So

I go in, and I, I tell them my thing, and they ask all their questions. They wanna know where I've been, what I've done, what's happened to me, what's my genetics, what's my family history. Uh, uh, asking all these questions. I'm thinking we're wasting time. Let's just get to my solution that

I created, uh- Yeah ... and I- If you get the direct to consumer, uh, drug ads too, they love those. Right. And lo and behold, come to find out I was wrong. It was not what I thought. And, uh, you know, they, they prescribed, uh, the solution, and I was much better. So Dr. Jeff is not gonna be a thing. Um, but we are- That's good ... we are, we are the house doctors, you know? And

Jason and I, when we go into that home, we're doing what's best for that home. We treat that home like our own home. We wanna f- we wanna improve it. It's, it's unbiased. Um, we want comfortable homes. We don't want pests in homes.

Mm-hmm. Uh, and, and those are the type of things that, uh, people... They're-- it's kind of the unseen, right? Um, we see it a little bit more if you have ice.

And, and, and, and Jason's issue, he sees it more when maybe there's droppings or there's noises that are unexplained in the home. And what, what are some of the ramifications of some of these bigger animals like squirrels and, and flying squirrels and raccoons climbing through your attics? That's pretty dangerous, right?

Chipmunks. Yeah. I mean, you'd be surprised. I mean, how many times have we get into an attic, and, you know, someone's like, "I hear a noise in my attic." And you go up into the attic, you know.

And let's face it, Jeff, I mean, you know. You go into an attic. How many people go into inside their attic consistently? They don't usually know. Yeah. A lot of times the attics are, you know, they got a little hatch in the bedroom. You gotta climb through the closet, right? And all of a sudden... Who's gonna get up there, really? You know, us. You, me, we're up there looking. You get up there, and you find animals, but then what do you see? The insulation. And then you start the conversation:

"Hey, when's the last time you had insulation done?" "Well, we've owned the house for, like, 15 years, and, you know, we haven't had it done in a long time, and my utility costs are crazy." Right. You know?

So that's the opportunity to be like, "Okay, you know, let's see what's going on." And like I said before, they go hand in hand with what we do. So a lot of times we get in the attics, we can see that there's sometimes poor insulation, old insulation.

Um, a lot of insulation that you run into in the attics and stuff is, is matted down, and then that's where the, the rodents and the animals and stuff come in. The droppings, squirrels, raccoons.

Um, you know, their droppings, depending upon how long they, they get there, it could be, you know... Uh, why go somewhere if you don't have to? Right. You know?

Right. All, all animals need three things: food, shelter, and water. Provide all three, they're never gonna go anywhere. Right. And they use the insulation as, as a blanket, 'cause why wouldn't you? They do. They do dig through that insulation, some of it, certain types more than others, and use it, and use it to nest. Mm-hmm. And so, um, so Jason, from Rochester Pest Pro, what's your, what's your, uh, contact information? What's your service area? Um, so our contact information, best way to find out about us is visit our website, rochesterpestpro.com.

Um, you can call our office at 585-486-4815. Um, we service, um, obviously all of Monroe County and the surrounding counties around it. Um, we do general pest control services, um, and nuisance wildlife control. Excellent. Um, so we're pretty flexible. Um, like I said, though, if you go on our website, it's the best place to go and look and see our areas that we service. Um, there's a lot of different, uh, areas of insects and things that we do and different programs.

Um, everything's pretty much right there for you. Excellent. Excellent. Most, most common pests that you encounter, Jason? Um, believe it or not in this area, 'cause we're seasonal, it all obviously depends on the season. So this time of year, typically, we usually see a lot of calls for mice and stuff like that. However, this past, uh, weather and this winter recently, we haven't been seeing as many calls for mice and things like that. However, um, we've been getting a lot of calls for wildlife and things like that, and it's the opposite. Normally in the wintertime you don't because everything is inside and squirrels are not running around a lot like they are. You know, with it being, you know, almost in the 50s today, coming up for the next couple days, you know, nothing wants to come inside.

But, you know, in the wintertime it's mostly mice. In the April to October, it's usually the crawling and flying insects: ants, millipedes, centipedes, spiders, stink bugs. Um, the yellow jackets start midsummer, you know? Um-

A lot of bees. Oh, my gosh, the yellow jackets. I mean, especially, you know... And I think this summer is gonna be crazy. Um, the weather's been not consistent. I don't think we really had a really good, solid, deep freeze like we normally get.

No. Um, you know, and we're getting a lot of c- we're starting to get calls now where people are calling us and saying, "Hey, there's stink bugs going on," and, you know. As we get moving through the season, Jeff, you guys are gonna start seeing a lot more of those things in your attics- Yeah ...

doing your inspections. The bats. Yeah. Um, you know, the bats are gonna start moving around, and people will start hearing and finding bats in their houses.

Um, so, you know, it's a really just good inspection. Yeah. So it's r- it's really dirty jobs. We go where people don't really wanna go in their homes. So it's always a surprise. No. We always say, "Hey, can you clean out your, uh, closet so we can get up in your attic?"

Uh, in the b- in the basement there's a piece of wood over the nasty crawl space that they don't wanna go. "Can you, can you at least move the stuff away from that so we can go and get in there?" And it's kind of the... We're in the same areas of the home usually and, uh, looking for energy, uh, losses and looking for pests that are using those same, uh, travel, uh, routes as, uh, as the energy loss. So- And back to you guys again at, uh, Wise Home Energy.

Uh, give them the contact info. It's 585-270-5836. And we always say, "Don't be cold in your home." Or warm in the summertime.

That's right. Uh, so, uh, what, uh, what, what you wanna do is don't necessarily assume what you think the problem is. Right. Uh, because frequently it's something entirely different.

Absolutely. Yeah, we, uh, you know, a- as we've said, uh, that New York State is offering a no-cost light assessment. We, uh, if you're income eligible, you can, uh, probably get a no-cost blower door test that really, um, uh, really tells you what's going on. I just was at a home recently and, uh, it's the guy's family's dream home. This is the home he bought, loves it, beautiful, but it was made of wood, and wood is cool, uh, but the interior is all wood. And so what happens is people don't put an air barrier behind that, uh, drywall or, um, poly, uh, some type of, um, a vapor air barrier, and this blower door is off the charts. And this is not a huge home, and it, it is, you know, it's a staged approach. You know, I think he wants to live there, but you don't...

Y- y- do you wanna tear down all the, the lumber? Uh, the other option for a roof, you can take off the roof and, and insulate it from up there. So it, it's gonna be a little bit of a project, but he now knows. He has the blower door. You get to walk around with us with the infrared scan. Let me stop you for a quick second. Tell them what a blower door test is again. That's right. So a blower- Yeah, it's- They, uh, bl- 'Cause a lot of people, th- this is the first time they've heard the show, so. Exactly. Absolutely. I've done that at my house. That's right. That's right. It was eye-opening, right? I never... I couldn't believe it. I'll give you just a quick story.

So we had an issue. We bought a house. We had some insulation stuff done, and the people we bought the house from said, "Yeah, the house is great. Set up." I called Jeff. I said, "Jeff, my energy bill is out of control.

I-- What's going on?" He goes, "Jay, I don't know. Blower test door we gotta do." "Jeff, what's that?" He comes to the house. We walk around the house. We do an assessment, this and that, asking questions. "Hey, what do you think your temperature is?" All these different things. He gets this contraption, Bob, and it's, it's probably about the size of a half of a door.

He puts it on the door. It's got this fan motor on it. He's, he turns it and plugs it in, and he's got all these different sensors and things that he runs around, and he looks and sees. Turns it on and starts reading all this information, and it's crazy. In my house particularly, he closed the door, all of a sudden it reset. "Jay, there's your airflow."

"What do you mean?" So he took this, uh, I don't know, it was, it was like, uh, I don't know what it was. Theater fog. Yeah, there we go. Theater fog. And I had a fireplace, and he ran it along the top of the fireplace, and you could see with the blower door on, it was sucking it out the house.

And I go, "This is insane." And I couldn't believe it because in my family room, eh, I couldn't figure out where all the air was coming from. We'd get a draft and it would... Everything looks great. It looks nice.

There's no issues. He puts the thing up, boom, it's sucking the read out. Yeah. And now- That, that's, uh, those are dollar bills flying out through that crack. Oh my God. Absolutely. Unbelievable. Yeah. And, you know, luckily you were able to come and fix it.

You were able to get things adjusted. Now my house, I was just telling him before we were, we were here, on the way here, is, uh, I'm impressed. I can't believe how much long-term energy that. I'm saving. My temperature stays consistent in my house. It's warm all the, time. Um, and most of all, you stand behind what you do, Jeff. Yeah. And that's why, you know, not only as a, as a consumer, but, you know, you do what you say and say what you do. Yeah. And that's something that as a local business, as a consumer, that's who I wanna work with. Excellent.

Yeah. The, the blower door, it really makes the unseen seeable. It, it's, you know, you can't judge a book by its cover, and it, and it's not invasive. You can't... There is a little prep. You can't burn a wood-burning stove or fireplace for 24 hours, but it's not gonna, you know, make your hair stand on end. You can sit and watch TV or walk around with us. It, it basically puts, uh, the equivalent of tw- 20 mile per hour wind on each side of the home. And, and there's some advanced diagnostics to it. You can set it up and just get a number that is how much leaks out of your home in an exaggerated rate. But then as Jason said, there's, there's, um, a theater fog. There's infrared cameras we can use with it. There's zonal pressure. We can really take that thing... Uh, it's hard to explain it all. You have to kind of, going back to the doctor story, you have to trust that we know. Once you tell us what the problem is, then we can go and use the appropriate test to de- dig in and find out what's going on. It's really like an MRI. Right. And, and it's not necessarily, uh, a case of changing the heat or air conditioning source. Mm-hmm. Uh, lots of... It's just, it's a systemic approach to the entire house- Right ... to make sure that it's, it's breathing in a healthy way- Right ... uh, and not creating drafts and not costing you unnecessarily when it comes to energy, and that's why it's the Wise Home Energy. Now, you got a di- nice sort of background on this. Tell them about that. Absolutely. So- I worked, uh, for Honeywell, um, a long, long time ago, and Honeywell had a contract, uh, and was an implementer for the state program. So I managed, uh, 20 to 30 contractors across Western New

York, and, uh, you know, that was a, that was a very, uh, fortunate experience for me 'cause I got to see what was going right. and what was going wrong. And, and it's like anything, the devil's in the details. It's the little things.

If you do a job 90% good, uh, you're probably not gonna get much results. You gotta kick it over. You know, it's tough to be perfect, uh, in this world, but you gotta start getting toward the 97, 98% effectiveness before you can have a tipping point and really make an effect in someone's home. There's a benchmark that you've gotta hit, and that's why just assuming, "Oh, well, we need more insulation in the walls. Yeah, we need a bigger air conditioner," uh, those are misleading. Right. Absolutely. Yeah, let us do our thing. Really the, the most important thing to do is for you to make a list of what, what is concerns you in the home. So adding insulation, that doesn't really concern you. You don't... Nobody wants to add insulation.

They wanna add insulation 'cause they've decided that's gonna solve a problem. And that blower door test, what's neat about it is, um, it can, it can tell you it's too high. It can tell you it's too low.

So we, we get homes that they're brand-new homes, um, and they're tight, but there might be one little area, as we just said, that is leaking, and that causes all the problems that they're having. So it's a critical test.

Um- Yeah, hopefully, it tells you there's nothing wrong, but usually that's not the case. Total process from beginning to end, how's long, long, how long is it, does it take? So the assessment, um, usually we say two to three hours, depending on the complexity of the home and, and, what else is going on.

The blower door test is, um, kind of a, a... can be a quick test, but, we have to inspect. We have to go up in the attic and, and make sure there's no health and safety issues. But that can range, uh, usually from 10 to 30 minutes.

So... And it's tricky. We don't want people coming and going 'cause y- if you. open exterior doors, it. throws the test off. You just kind of have to stay in the home and, and let us do our thing. You're welcome to follow around and, and see, uh, what we' see. You know, show you... We'll show you exactly what we have.

We take a ton of pictures to. show you, and then if you're getting any grants or. rebates, we have to use those pictures to, to show that the, you know, what we're doing makes sense and, fits within the guidelines of the rebate programs. Wise Home Energy, ladies and, gentlemen. Jeff Flaherty. Jay from Rochester PestPro.

Gee, I can sing the jingle. Uh, what's, uh, what's the process like with you if, uh, people think they have a problem? Typically you call in, we' schedule an inspection, and then we come out, do an inspection, and then give you your options from there, depending upon what you need. I never want any of my customers to get something that' they don't want.

I want them to get what they need. That's how we are different. Uh, do they have to be out of the home when you're assessing or- No ...

treating or anything? Um, depends. Some treatments you need to be out of the home. It, really, depends upon what it is that we're doing and, depends upon what materials and, stuff that we're using for whatever it is that you got going on.

Okay. And, once again, your service area is basically the entire Rochester metro, right? Pretty much that and all the surrounding counties. Okay. So... So Monroe, Livingston, Ontario, Orleans,

Wayne. Pretty much, yep. Yeah, okay. Batavia, things like that, yeah. Okay, great. All right. Well, let's get the, uh, let's get the contact information in here so people know how to, you know, get comfortable in your home. Uh, Jeff from Wise Home Energy? Yeah,

585-270-5836. Also can visit us on the web at wisehomeenergy.com. All right.

And by the way, you can get the, uh, if you want to hear this program over again, the podcast is available. We never plug this on this show. We should do that. It's available on all the podcast platforms. Uh, it's at wysl1040.com. You look for the podcast, uh, little navigation on the site there, and, uh, you can pick right up on that. And, uh, the contact information for Rochester Pest Pro, Jason? Sure. So it's, uh, the website's rochesterpestpro.com, or you can give our office a call at 585-486-4815. All right. And once again, thank you very much for listening. Be sure you let the folks know that you heard the program on the WYSL stations.

We will see you next time on the Wise Home Energy Show on WYSL.