Stop Guessing, Start Measuring: Three Real Cases Where Diagnostics Made All the Difference

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On, WYSL WLEA, the Voice of Liberty, it's time for another Wise Home Energy program, and we have in studio none other than- Pure energy. Yeah, that's the guy, Jeff Flaherty.

Hey, Bob. Hey. Thank you for having me back in here. Well, thank you for clearing your schedule. Your schedule. It feels like it's been a year, but it hasn't been that long. Thank goodness. And having, having a lot of fun apparently, huh? Yeah. We've been out there traveling around the world. I'm in a, I'm in a peer group, uh, with five contractors across the nation. Hmm.

What does that mean? Um, so I, uh, have been a very fortunate person, uh, at times, and, uh, the gentleman who started home performance with ENERGY STAR, or kinda titled that, uh, to fix homes with a, with a degree of science behind it, I went to a symposium some years ago, uh, in Vermont and, uh, it was kind of a high-end, uh, um, invite-only meeting, and I met some contractors, and they were trying to start this peer group, or maybe they already had. And, uh, so what it is is, um, I'm in a peer group that, uh, we are... kinda do the similar home performance. So we're not just HVAC.

We're, we're diagnosing the home, looking at the envelope and tightening it up and then right-sizing equipment. And the theory is there is no owner's manual when you start a business. No one hands you, uh, uh, you know, how to run a radio station, and no one hands you how- Right ... to run a home performance, uh, company. So- Kinda like having a kid. Yeah. You know? Exactly. And you kinda figure it out, and how do you.. how do you learn faster? And so you can't turn down the road and ask my competitors, and I'll tell you later on in the show why you can't do that. But, uh, uh, so we get together, uh, twice a year, and we go to, uh, uh, uh, one of the hosts or, uh, somebody hosts, uh, the event, and we kinda converge on that site, interview the owner, ask him what's going well, what, what he's having, uh, challenges with, and then we interview the staff and go out to site visits and see installs, and then after the two days are up, then we present to the owner to what's going well, in the company and what, uh, what we' see can be improved to, uh, make, make life easier, do better installs, uh, grow your company and make everybody happy. And, uh, it's really quite a, quite a neat experience. I'm, I'm really quite fortunate to be involved in that.

And these are- Very cool. Yeah. These are- Yeah ... these are, these are high-end c- uh, companies, uh, across the nation. We got, um, uh, Portland, Oregon, and, um, outside, uh, San Francisco in the Bay Area, uh, Westchester County in the, um, uh, Eastern Shore of Maryland are the contractors. And it's, uh, it's, it's reinvigorating when I get to go to this, uh- So it's a relatively small group. It is.

It is. We're, we're actively kinda we wouldn't mind adding, uh, a person, or two or a company or two. So we, when we go to the national conferences, we present on the benefits of, of this peer group. And, and, it's... We share everything. So we put all our numbers on the board and, uh, make sure we're, um, you know, uh, priced, not priced right, but i- if you don't, if you don't have profit, you won't be around to fix any homes next year. Mm-hmm. Sure. So we have to make sure that, we're profitable enough to pay the employees, pay the suppliers, uh, fix the homes properly and, uh, still be in business next year. And, have enough money left over to go to the next IDIA Bank gathering. Yeah. It says the time is probably approaching when you're gonna be hosting in Rochester. I, absolutely, I am up, next. Uh, so I am in, in October. They will be coming up and, uh, yeah, it's fun. We, uh, we're kind of planning. We always kind of do a little something. So we, uh, one of the folks from Westchester is always, uh, enamored with the Erie Canal, and, so am I. So we're, we're trying to figure out to have a little, uh, trek on the Erie Canal, uh, which is a, which is a great story of, uh...

I, I love the story of the Erie Canal because, uh, I think it was Governor Clinton who, uh, uh, you know, proposed it, and everybody said he was crazy. Absolutely. And they called it Clinton's Ditch. Yep. And, uh, he dug this thing, and everybody said he was nuts, and it just, uh, was so big that, uh, they've had to expand it very quickly. So I like that, over in Syracuse, they have an area or they...

I see a business over there in Clinton's Ditch, and I- Yes ... I think it's, uh, so neat that, uh, when all the naysayers said this was wrong, but, uh, he persevered and, um, really, you know, uh, made a, a, a huge improvement to, uh, transportation and how to get goods across to the Great Lakes. Well, it was the economic engine that built New York State. Yeah. It was, it was incredible. It was the westward push.

Uh, New- western New York, uh, the area where we live, it was, that was the wild frontier- Yeah ... back when the Erie Canal was being built, and they, they had no idea how to dig a canal. Amazing.

No- nobody knew how. Yeah. They, they, they started over in Rome. Is that right? Yeah, in 1817. That was the, that was the beginning of the digging, and it was kind of... They just learned by doing.

Yeah. Uh, and they got to, like, the Montezu... It's fascinating to read the history. Really? You know, you get to the Montezuma Marshes, and they had no idea how to, how to dig through, you know, a swamp-type, uh- Yeah ... area. And so they developed, uh, they developed this concrete that would set underwater while, while they were excavating. Really? Yeah. Well, I was listening to, uh, a very famous guy, I think his name is Bob Savage, uh- Oh ... recently, and they were talking about the canal and then how there was some southern offshoots that maybe were around for a little bit- Oh, yeah ... and didn't, didn't last too long. But I... That was a piece of history that I wasn't aware of. Yeah. There were some cross, uh, smaller canals that went down to the Southern Tier. Yeah. Uh, down through Livingston County. There was the Genesee Valley

Canal, and then there was the Chemung Canal, uh, down in the, uh- Uh, Ithaca, Elmira area. And all these, yeah, uh, uh, this, this system that, you know, you think about it, technologically this thing only was open seven months of the year.

Really? So, well, sure. Who thought of that? Yeah. Because the, uh, the water freezes, uh, and then you gotta wait till spring. So no navigation for half of the time. When the steam locomotive came along, and that was being developed pretty much, you know, the same time as the Erie Canal was, was, uh, was operating- Yeah ... very quickly made the, uh, the canal obsolescent. Interesting. That is interesting. And, and so, uh, our listeners may wonder, how does that, uh, uh, uh, attach to home performance?

Mm. And, and so I think it's the naysayers. Sometimes, uh, what is different isn't, um, you know, necessarily good or bad until we dig into the details. And, uh, I had a call r- uh, a couple weeks ago by a client who, um, had a, a furnace installed by Wise Home Energy, uh, seven, eight months ago. And if, uh, if you're from the local area, you're familiar that we had kind of a, a, a tougher winter, uh, more of a normal '70s, '80s type winter. So it was pretty cold. And she called and said that, um, she had decided to... her AC. failed, and she went and got central AC added, and the AC isn't working. And the installer said the furnace we' installed was too small.

And I said, "Okay. Um, why does he say that?" "Well, he just says that, oh, he, it's too small, and he would not put that in." And, and I said, "Well, how is that related to the AC?" "Well, it's not gonna move enough air for the AC." So, you know, the way your home, uh, loses heat in the wintertime is very similar to the way it gains heat in the summertime.

So, uh, relationship-wise, there, uh, is gonna be some correlation between the size of your AC and the size of your heating unit, and that's in this particular climate zone. We're in climate zone five.

Uh, so it-- that didn't really make a lot of sense to me. I looked at it and thought, "Well, the, the AC unit's too big." Um, and we' did what is called a Manual J load calculation, which, uh, I... depending on if you read code, uh, you're actually supposed to do this calculation. So this calculation is how much heat, uh, the home, is going to need in the wintertime, and then how much, uh, uh, cooling it will need in the summertime. So, uh, it was a grant program.

She was getting some subsidy on the furnace. She just wanted the furnace at that time, and so we, uh, spec'd this furnace. And so she said, "Yeah, you know, he said that it's the wrong size." And, and I called five other contractors and they said, "Well, for a house your size, we would've put in a 60,000 or an, maybe even an 80,000," and we naturally put in a two-stage 40,000 BTU furnace.

So I said, "Well, when you say it's the wrong size, you know, we installed this, and I don't recall you calling us during the winter saying it wasn't heating your home." And she's like, "Well, yeah, no, it was fi- well, it could've been a little wor- " You know. It felt like a little backpedaling there. Yeah.

So she said-- I said, "Look, ma'am, we did a Manual J load calculation. Has, has your AC installer done one?"

Um, and she's like, "Well, let me get him on the phone." I said, "Well, I don't think he's gonna wanna talk to me." And she said, "Oh yeah, no, he's fine. He called." And so she called him and got him on the three-way call and, and he told me that he didn't, he didn't like telling people how to do their, their job, but he thought that this should be a 60, and he's called a bunch of people and, and they said it should be a 60.

Um, and that just reminds me of those conversations, you know, I had with my mom as a kid or maybe there were, maybe there were instructions that if everyone was jumping off a bridge- Oh, geez ... why should I jump off the bridge? You're right. Would you go jump otherwise? So, um, you know, so I just said, "Well, um, have you done a Manual J load calculation? Have you checked the static pressure on the system? Have you done a system airflow test?" And, uh, he said, "No, I'm just, you know, I'm, I'm not saying, you know, how things should be, but

I gotta go. I'm, I'm in the middle of a job." And click, he hung up. So I, you know, I asked her again and who it was 'cause I never got his name, and I looked him up and he, he did have nine Google reviews, and he had a 2.9 rating. So, um- Is that good? It's... Yeah, if the scale was out of three, I would say that's pretty good, but the scale is out of five. Oops.

Um, so that, that isn't that high. And, and so it was funny to me 'cause they're all looking at me, and I'm thinking, "Well, my equipment worked. Why, why is this my responsibility?" And they're- Because, because you're the one that delivered the bad news. Right.

So I... You know, it, it's a, it's a ways from our shop, and not everybody in our office is gonna be skilled at doing all the tests that we do. This would fall more, um, to a higher level, uh, person or...

And, and so I said, "Well, I can come out and, and prove to you that I did the, the right thing, but I would have to charge you for that." Um, and she said, "Well, I want someone independent," and I didn't hear from her, and then she went and got a, um, a quality assurance visit from NYSERDA. Great.

Uh, we got that report this week, and it, it's a passing five and, and, uh, it just, it kinda says that there was a Manual J. We had supplied our Manual J. Now, I didn't supply it to the client, and my reasoning was, why should I?

My equipment works. He should supply his Manual J for the central air, uh, is my thought. So I, I may provide it. Um, so my, my theory is probably what's happened is a system is meant to, uh, move so much air.

Uh, so the duct work can only... It can be measured, and it'll, like say it'll, it'll move 1,000 cubic foot per minute. If your air conditioning unit is sized so that it needs 1,500 cubic foot per minute, it, it's

10 pounds in a five-pound bag. Mm-hmm. You can't do it. Yeah. And what happens is that, uh, the condenser, uh, freezes up and, and it, it just won't, it won't, uh, it won't work properly.

So now, we didn't check all that, and the reason why we didn't check all that is because we insulated the home, took the blower door, um- Roughly, I wanna say down a third, like 3,000 down to

2,000. And, uh, uh, sh- so- we're-- when we're downsizing a piece of equipment, we're, we're going to less, uh, cubic foot per minute through the system. So generally, we normally are not gonna have any problems if they didn't have any problems with the past system, you know?

Well, you had no idea when, when you were installing this and, and when you were going through this process that they were planning on putting in central air at a, at a future time. Right. Right? Right. I mean, may-maybe that would have affected or maybe not. I mean, I, I don't know. Well, we would have done a smaller unit, and I think that would have worked fine. And it's kind of a shame she didn't call us. Um, so I, you know, I said, "Lookit, I-- y-you've done this. You still don't, you don't have it resolved.

But I mean, w-- I can' come out, but, I'm gonna have to charge it." And I said, "Here's, here's what' I'm gonna want. I'm gonna want a few things." And I said, "If I come out and prove to you that my system's fine and it's the AC person's fault, um, then, then you should pay me this fee. That, that's, that's my deal with, you because

I don't, I don't wanna leave you hanging, but why do I have to spend money to prove that five other people are wrong?" Yeah. You know? Yeah. Why shouldn't they... And it just goes to show that's what' I wanna, you know, say to, the listeners is one of the things we do is w-we measure things. And, um, the measurement of, "Hey, it's not working," that's a measurement that, uh, is at the end of the line of all these other measurements that have to be taken and compared to. Uh, you know, I think of the homes where we go to a home and, and there's, uh, you know, all these lines on the wall showing Johnny and his different ages and, and- Right ... what height he is. And when we go to the doctor, they say, "Well, he's in the, the top 50 percentile." And, and when we go to school, we say, "Oh, he scored this much."

And so we're measuring and we're comparing, and we're comparing those measurements to a range of what they should be, and this is something that the old school, uh, HVAC folks, uh, don't seem to be doing because, uh, apparently when you call up over the phone, I'm, I'm, the one who's apparently installing the wrong piece of equipment-

Yeah. ... even though, even though mine seems to be working fine. So- Yeah. Now, once again, this is part of the role of developing the, uh, uh, delivering the, the, the bad news. And, by the way, you're listening to the Wise Home Energy

Show here on, WYSL, WLA. Jeff Flaherty with us here from Wise Home Energy. Uh, don't be cold in your home. Don't be hot in your home, and, just pick up the phone and, Jeff, call. You can call or text five eight five two seven zero fifty-eight thirty-six.

And, and one of the things, you know, that, that people... You know, not all energy audits are the same. Uh, we certainly think we have a, a much better process, and we think that based off our clients, our clients', uh, response to the work we do, to the assessment. We hear that a lot.

A lot of people will get a few people out to the home and, uh, they'll say, "Boy, the other person didn't do this. The other person didn't do that." And, and so this, is. no cost to all New Yorkers. You just have to have an electric bill, and, you can sign up, uh, and get one of these, uh, no cost assessments.

And, and it's. not, uh, generally we're, not looking at the windows. The windows aren't really the problem. Uh, it, tends to be someplace else, and, it tends to be, uh, discovered with equipment that we can sort of see, uh, what others can't, similar to an MRI or an X-ray.

You' know, we, we, have these pains and sooner or later we' have to go and, and, and start digging a little deeper into these tests to figure out, um, you know, what, uh, what's taking place. So, uh, you know,

I had another call recently and-- or they, they filled out the paperwork and they said, "You know, I got a new roof due to ice damming," and I'm thinking, "That didn't solve your ice damming."

Um, so I, I, I, I, I gotta have a conversation with her and say, "Do you realize that this did not, um, solve your ice dams?" They might have put some-- They probably by code put some ice and water shield on the, the roof, but it's not going to, uh, solve the ice, the underlying cause of the ice problem.

So, um, those are the things that we really want to, um, focus on for folks is the solution. Uh, anybody can chase these rebates. These rebates are available. It doesn't really even take that much to sign up to get, uh, approved to give these rebates. On the insulation side, you have to have, uh, a couple of certifications to apply for NYSERDA to be approved to offer these things.

And on the HVAC side, for rebates for the heat pumps, uh, all you have to do is know how to do this Manual J. And like any other calculation, garbage in, garbage out, you can kinda put in whatever you want and there's no one to really verify the data that was put in correctly.

And one of the rebate changes it looks like they're gonna make, I just sat on a webinar this morning, is that they're gonna kinda give you a little bit more rebate s- it almost implied if you were choosing a better contractor.

So if you're just going with an HVAC contractor that doesn't know the shell of the home and how much heat the home is losing, uh, it sounds like they might be able to offer a less rebate, uh, based on someone who can tighten up the home and, um, make the home more energy efficient. And, you know, I think of the rates going up and everybody's up in arms and I think to myself, if you look at-- take a, just a ballpark home that was using $3,000 of energy and because of the inflation and a little maybe cold winter, say it went up a thousand over the past five years, which

I'm sure is pretty reasonable, uh, 25% increase. Had they called us and got these services installed in their home, that thousand wouldn't have gone up that much. They would've saved and they'd probably still be at three thousand. Now it's hard to Imagine that you're, you're saving money by spending the same amount of money as you had five years ago, but as opposed to the inflation of $1,000 a year, you would've cut that. And had you, uh, elected some, some financing for these improvements, it clearly would've paid for itself. Uh, but the key is measuring. So not only the measurement of how much do you pay monthly for your utility bill, how much you're willing to, to pay for upgrades, uh, then we measure with the blower door. It's also important for them to realize th-that, you know, when you're talking about these NYSERDA programs, that they've paid for this. All-- everybody out there listening, you have paid for this kind of assessment already. That's right. It's baked into your utility bill. That's right. It's on there. It's a line item on your utility bill called the systems benefit charge, the SBC.

Uh, it's-- I don't even look at it now. Years ago when I got into this, we-- it figured out to be about a dollar a month. It's probably more like $3 a month. As we said, the inflation takes it up. And you've been paying for it for years. Yes. Why not take advantage of it? And, and check what-- uh, you know, if you're not in our listening area, check what the, what the, is the assessment going to entail. So

I, I had a guy just call me yesterday who, uh, was really calling us for kind of a peer review. He's had-- he had some injection foam put in his home. Uh, injection foam's a, a, an interesting product. Maybe we'll delve into a little deeper, uh, some, some show. But it's, um, it, it, it could be used in some right applications, but for this application, for wall insulation of empty cavities, it is, it-- to me, it is not, um, the right product.

And he had this in, and he's got all these smells, so he's concerned it's a curing problem or there's some type of problem, and he stumbled on us and, uh, saw our reviews. And

I said, "Well, look it, I have IAQ tests. I can come and test this. I can do this assessment. Tell me, when they did this and they went through NYSERDA and got a rebate, when they did this, did they do a blower door test?" And he's like, "Uh, come to find out they, they didn't 'cause there was this little piece of tape on my return that could be asbestos." And I said, "The blower door is not going to disturb that. Your furnace fan is moving so much air, that is gonna disturb it. Uh, we're, gonna come down and most likely be able to do that test."

Uh, and i-it's, it-- that's the, the metric of, we don't know, what he started at, but it, probably didn't move the needle. Uh, and his concern isn't so much, uh, comfort or it didn't work. His concern is something went wrong with the install and, and that's why I told him on' the phone, I said, "This, this product was probably not the right product for this application."

Injection foam is probably more for, uh, cinder block or stucco or brick homes. It, it-- there's a few applications that, it may make sense to install this product due to some, um, moisture, um, uh, repelling features once it's, cured.

Uh, so but, then I a- you know, when I ask, "Oh, he didn't do a blower door?" I'm like, "Yeah," because it's not that they don't know, how to, do it, it's they don't wanna be held accountable to what the results are.

And here's where they are. The results are terrible. Now, there are times not to do that blower door, but, um- Yeah, 'cause you can't just prove without the evidence that the blower door, uh, provides, right? Right. And so- Right ... there's a, there's a built-in accountability factor there that he may not have been comfortable with. Yes. Yeah. So and, and I just said, "Here's what we're gonna do." And this isn't-- now I'm just doing this more out of curiosity. Yeah, we're, we're gonna just run him through the, the state. audit program and be paid a minimal amount to do the assessment. Uh, but I said, "Do you have a central AC?" He said, "Yes." I said, "You're-- we're gonna get a hot day. We're gonna schedule this on a hot day. You're gonna get your AC going.

You're gonna close up this house." I said, "And we're gonna do an afternoon appointment. I want the house, I want the sun to really bake down on this house, and then I can measure the indoor air quality in more, uh, uh, realistic conditions of the home being tightened up. And, and then that IR, uh, will, will pop a lot more to show how well their wall insulation was, done and, and see if there's voids in it." So, um, I have the luxury of doing that. And, and normally people say, "Oh, is there better times to have audits?" We can do them anytime with the blower door test. This one I'm, I'm specifically trying to address a, a, a quality control issue, so this one I'm gonna spec some of these parameters where I need a hot day and I need the AC. But we can do these anytime because we're willing to do these blower door tests. And I would dare say we have the most blower doors, uh, per, uh, capita or employee count, uh, in Western New- York, because we, we pride ourselves on using this test.

And on our website we have case studies of what you, what you can expect to see if you have a Cape Cod home from the '50s, if you have a ranch home from the '60s, if you have an '80s colonial home from the, uh, you know, 1980s, that we can show you these are the, these are the homes that we've done, and these are realistic gains. And each home's different but, um,

I always say if, you know, if you had a boat, two boats and you wanted to get in and one of them leaked and one of them didn't, but you didn't know which one, are you willing to flip that coin and go out on that lake? Or would you rather be able to test which one leaks before you get in it?

Uh, so, um, I had another, uh, interesting call with, uh... I've had a few recently on some heat pumps where people had heat pumps installed and their, their usage is twice as, much. Now, the, the-- these are landlords and they, say the bills are twice as much. I said, "Well, send me. the, the, bill.

I wanna see it." And I look at the usage and I say, "Well, the usage is probably twice as much as what it should be And, you know, we, we offer them, uh, you know, a cost to, come out and do an assessment to determine what's wrong with it. Now, the one I already did, and, uh, it, it' was funny 'cause he owned four, uh, homes, like townhomes together, old, older building. And the p- the electric was huge, huge. But luckily he had all the data. They had a gas furnace. He had a relative say, "Oh, these heat pumps are great. Let's put in a heat pump." And he said, "The heat pumps don't work." And I went and I did the blower door test. I'm like, "You have a dropped ceiling." "Oh yeah, we had a fire and, and there's no ceiling above it." I said, "Well, your home leaks twice as much air." And I-- when I looked at the gas usage and I said, "So you just gotta... y- the heat pumps work fine. You gotta just heat-- you gotta just seal this home up." And the maintenance guy goes, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're gonna switch it out with a gas furnace."

I'm like, "Well, that's not gonna do anything. That's still gonna use twice as much energy." And it showed right in his own data that this unit, back when it had a gas furnace, used twice as much as the, the unit next to him. The... all the data was there, but he j- you know, the maintenance guy, he had already had the solution. And I always caution people, they call me up and they already have the solution in mind. And, you know, I'm sure doctors are used to this. Uh, you know, when you go to the doctor and you're like, "This is what I need, Doc. I, I've diagnosed my own problem."

Drives them crazy. People go to Dr. Google all the time. Right. And they come in and say, "Hey, uh, you know, I think I got the whatchacallitosis." Absolutely. And I do it sometimes. I go, "Sorry, I don't wanna say what I think it is, but here's my pain.

This is the pain." Start with the pain. Let the professional diagnose it. Even though you're living in the home, uh, you know, 16 hours a day or whatever it is, you know, your home.

You know, the things you don't like. Tell us what you don't like, and then we'll diagnose the home and tell you if we can improve those conditions. And it's, uh... Those are the fun ones. I mean, when people call up and go, "I just wanna see what needs to, be done," I don't need to come out and do that. Send some pictures. Insulate, air seal, insulate, air seal.

Uh, y- and most homes haven't had this done professionally. The ones that have had it done in the past 10 years, s- many of those weren't done professionally. They've done wrong. We've fixed many homes that unfortunately had it done recently, because they don't measure. And you would be willing to help that dear listener out there who is scratching his head right now, or, or her head, thinking, uh, thinking about what you've been talking about and going, "Wow, this kinda like sounds familiar territory." Yeah. Yeah, so there's a, a place they can go. Tell them about it. They can give us a call at 585-270-5836 or visit us on the web at wisehomeenergy.com. Ah, the voice of the wise guy, Wise Home Energy, Jeff Flaherty, and this has been a program of Wise Home Energy.

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