Heat Pumps Gone Wrong, Injection Foam Problems, and Meet the Intern

This podcast is brought to you by Open Door Mission. Restoring hope and changing lives. OpenDoorMission.com. Ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us here for another edition of the Wise Home Energy

Show on. WYSL/WLEA, The Voice of Liberty. Pure energy. Yes, indeed. And speaking of pure energy, here he is- Pure energy ... in living, walking form, the master of the, uh, of the universe here, of HVAC,

Jeff Flaherty. Hey, Bob. Thank you so much for that introduction. So glad to have you back here for another episode. I can't tell you how excited I am when I come here to pontificate and, uh, digress and, uh, tangent off on. all things energy. Yes, we're just gonna meander through the landscape here and, uh, see where, see where this takes us. Yes. There's been some, some high-energy storms that have come through recently. It's kind of funny. It's been quite hot, uh, but it's also been quite rainy, so everything's lush and, and growing. It's, uh... You're not getting that break from the lawn cutting, uh, that we normally get this time of year. Yeah, God's gift to, uh, landscapers and lawnmowers.

Yeah. It is a pretty, pretty interesting, uh, season we've had so far, if you like heat. Uh, if you like air conditioning, uh, uh, during that heat, uh, we certainly recommend tightening up your home and then right-sizing the equipment. But, uh- Thus to not be uncomfortable, hot and humid in your home, and why you should pick up the phone.

Yeah, and call. And, and call. 585-270-5836, or you can visit us on the web at WiseHomeEnergy.com. And while you're doing that, you can listen to the Wise Home Energy Show here on the Voice of Liberty. and, uh, get, uh, uh, you know, completely edified. Yeah. Absolutely. I, uh... You know, we, sometimes we get complaints that the energy. efficiency is- a scam, and it doesn't, uh, it doesn't work. And we had a, uh, a client call up who was a landlord of a few different properties, and, uh, they wanted us to come out and do a investigation because they had done an upgrade on. a couple of houses and, had electrified the homes, and, the electric usage was so high, uh, that they had to take the utilities out of the tenant's name and put it in their own name- Yikes ... until they could figure this out. So whenever somebody says that, we' say,

"That's just, um, idle chat, chatter in the, in the air. I want... Uh, let's start with the bills." And then the bills come over, and I thought, "Oh, my. These are, these are big bills."

Yeah, horrible. "These are huge, huge bills." This year has been really tough. Yeah. And this, this... I mean, we were starting in, like, the 8 to $10,000 a year range. Now mind you, this is supposed to be a rehabbed, tightened up, uh, well-improved home, uh, that has high-efficiency heat pumps. So, uh, we went out to the home recently. We haven't, uh, compiled all our results, but the first thing we noticed was the tag on the outdoor equipment and that just at first glance looked too big, knowing what we know in size of homes.

Um, so we got inside and, uh, uh, we had a, uh, ducted heat pump. We had a hybrid hot water tank, which is a heat pump, and we had an energy recovery ventilator. So when we tighten up homes, if you really tighten them up, uh, you certainly want a bath fan, uh, at the very least, and then you may wanna look at an, uh, energy recover, uh, re- ventilator that exchanges air and saves on the energy, so it' gives you' fresh air. Okay. For the uninitiated, which would include me, uh, w- what is the... Uh, say, say again what, what the name of that gadget is or that's- Sure.

So there's an energy recovery ventilator and a heat recovery, uh, ventilator. Okay. So you have one of- So they're kind of similar, but one'll, one'll handle, uh, moisture a little better. Okay. So. Do you have one of each, or is this a choice? Uh, no.

You would, you would just have, you would just have one. So- And does this, uh, critter sit in the basement, or where does it- Yeah. So it's a, a ducted system, and it basically has one pipe that comes in, drawing air in, comes into a box, and it has a heat exchanger inside, and there's another pipe that, uh, is going to, exhaust out. So there's really four pipes. The piping's coming in. Uh, it, it, uh, exchange or exchanges that heat. through a heat, exchanger. It filters it, and then it adds the air, the fresh air to the living space through either the existing duct work or its own duct work.

And then there's an, uh, pipe going out of the home, uh, that's gonna, uh, first give off its heat to that box, uh, and then exhaust it out, and that's the, the stale air. And in an ideal world, you'd pipe this where it's pulling out of troublesome, uh, indoor air quality spots like kitchens and bathrooms, and then you'd inject it into, uh, bedrooms and other, uh, living spaces. So, uh, that's perfect world. Uh, sometimes if you're just ducting it into, uh, the, uh, existing furnace, you're just kind of working with the existing duct work. The old adage is you don't put a return in the bathroom because you do not wanna pull that air back into your living space. Sure. Uh, so we, we pressurize the bathrooms, uh, and don't add returns to those. And, and those have filters, and, uh, all of the filters in, in this w- year or year and a half, uh, uh, remodeled home were completely jammed. Mm. I mean, these were the original filters. Even after they did the construction, they forgot to change or check the filters. Factory filters. Nice.

So I was cleaning one. of them with a Sawzall blade because it was so clogged, because we didn't have backup filters. We were there to just... So we were just doing some, uh, you know, uh, generous, uh, helping to get the system going a little bit. Little ad libbing kind of thing. So no maintenance. Um-

So the unit itself, at first glance, we're, we're gonna pretty be c- pretty... be pretty confident it's twice the size of what it needs to be. Wow! Uh, the hot water tank, I couldn't get over the, the filter clogging, so hopefully that'll help. Uh, and then the ERV, the same thing there. So y- when you start clogging this up, the system has to work harder, the amp draw become... The system ramps up. So the... Certainly, maintenance was a problem. Uh, then we went about our, uh, energy. audit, and the blower door test, uh, showed that, it probably didn't need an ERV. So they, they forgot to tighten the home up. Um, so I don't know, if they forgot to or what they did. So you... If you prescriptively do something, sorta like when I was young, I'd wash a car, and then when I get done and, and, and it dried off, I was like, "Well, I missed that spot, I missed that spot, and I missed that spot." I guess I wasn't really systematic in the way I washed a car. And the same thing with home performance and air sealing is you can prescriptively do it, then you need to test and figure out that it was done. So this one home was still at about a 10 air changes per hour. Uh, probably could've just got by with a bath fan.

Um, so- So what would you do in that case? Would you, would you cut the, uh... Was it ERV? Was it- Yeah. Yeah. Would you just cut it off and- You could, you- ... you know, block it off? You could probably turn it off. We... It, it pro- It has some settings, so we, could probably, uh, lower the, uh, flow, uh, and, and help there. And, and we, we can go farther. So we really are just doing some testing, some base testing and a visual inspection. Uh, we can, we could hook up electric monitors to the meters, and we can now get really granular into each circuit and find out really what, what's, what's, what each, uh, device is using.

So we don't know if the client wants to go that route. I mean, sadly, the big, uh, recommendation is probably gonna be to remove the unit and right-size the unit. That is probably, um, not only the biggest cost, but it'll be the biggest savings. When you say the unit, you're talking about the, uh, the heat pump and- The, the actual heat pump. What about all the water heaters?

Yeah. Is that gonna stay? Uh, the water heater should be fine. Somebody just is gonna wanna go down and, you know, you could treat it like your laundry. Um, if you don't clean that lint, uh, trap, uh, sometimes your, your drying time goes up to about two hours.

Uh, so you just clean that lint trap every time and, and likewise, you know, just alarms. Put an alarm on your phone and go clean it. Uh, and it just washes in a sink. It's, um, uh, it's, it's amazing.

So w- my challenge with that is that gives the, the industry a bad name. That says heat pumps don't work, heat pump water heaters don't work,

ERVs don't work, insulation and air sealing doesn't, work. Um, that's not true.

Yeah, anything done wrong, uh, doesn't work. So- ... uh, there has to be a verification. So th- this thing went along the way of many steps: design, implementation, final inspection, and no one noticed that the whole thing was a disaster.

Uh, and it, it's just astounding how, how, how much energy it was using and, and it can be fixed. So- How, how much, uh... What, what's the factor, do you think? You think that would improve it by what? 30%? 40%?

I mean, the things that the- Oh, oh, pro- probably 50%. Yeah. Oh, oh, we, we, we'd probably cut this down, um, in half or more. That would be good. Yeah. So then you're looking at a, an annual energy cost of in the $600 to $700 range?

Uh, no, no, 'cause this was... This, this home was... This home went to, like, 8,000- Oh, okay ... uh, dollars a year. Oh, well, okay. So we're, we're probably... We'd probably get it down to 40% of that, so we could probably get it down to 3,000 to

4,000. That's not terrible. No. No. That... Not good at math. 4 or 500 bucks a month, and it may be cheaper and, and we don't know how they use the home. But the... it's just that that stuff scares me because I don't know how many homes were done like this. There was no sticker on the mechanical tag, so it made me think someone wasn't proud or someone didn't wanna service the equipment- Right ... because we didn't really know who, who did the work, so.

I know nothing. Yeah. And so we, we tell these stories that, uh, because it can, it can be done right on a... and, and there's a process, and I, I know we did a show some maybe years ago where we kinda outlined the steps and, and we'll probably revisit that again. But it, it is sort of a simple, uh, process of, of test and measure, test and measure and compare.

Uh, so we had another home where a, a gentleman, I think I mentioned it last show, he had some injection foam put in his walls, and he sought us out to come and, uh, do a quality assurance visit because he has had so many problems. And the minute it's gone in, he had smells in the home, and he thinks there's something wrong with this foam. And so this is, this is a different foam than a, a closed cell or open cell spray foam. Closed cell, open cell spray foam is two, uh, component foam that is mixed on site and expands and adheres when it goes against a surface. Injection foam is fully, uh, fully expanded, and it is pumped into a wall using air pressure.

And it is a water-based product. It's called a tripolymer resin, is the, uh, technical term for it, and it used to have formaldehyde in it years ago. It's been reformulated. There's numerous manufacturers of it. Glad to hear that. Yeah. Formaldehyde in fires, not a good thing. Yeah. So, uh, this gentleman, and most of them, uh, I, I thought by law the, the formaldehyde's out of it, but he had some smells, and he was concerned and... So we went out, and we've done our inspection, and the infrared camera shows...

As I was saying before, it's water-based, so it's... as it dries and cures, it's, it naturally has to shrink a little bit So it's going to, in that cavity, pull in a little bit. It, it's just by its nature. That's how when things dry, they're gonna lose their volume. And so the infrared scan showed some challenging spots. We went on a nice hot day and, and, uh, it doesn't look good there. But he told us that the company's been out five different times. And so this smell, uh, he's concerned of the indoor air quality and, and we did some tests and there's, there's clearly something wrong with the IAQ.

We can't say that it's this product. We sort of can infer judging that there was no smell, then he had work. done and then there's smell. Is it like a chemical smell or? Um, I didn't go to the home. I, uh, uh, he... Yeah, he has a, a chemical smell in the home, yeah.

And, and the IAQ test kinda indicates that that's the case. And, and this product, um, you know, I wouldn't say, I wouldn't say never use this product, but I would say this product is best suited for, uh, concrete masonry block. Mm. Commercial buildings, it's used in a lot.

Um, in fact, in commercial buildings, I almost wanna say there's a different product that can have a little more formaldehyde in it.

Uh, the stuff they use in residential has less formaldehyde than a, a sheet of OSB board. So we put up OSB inside homes, so that gives you, uh, kind of the rating for, uh, formaldehyde.

But, um, densepack cellulose, uh, densepack, uh, timberfill, which is a, a wood pulp product, those products would've been the better solution here. They would've air sealed. Um, they, they can be improved if they're done wrong.

That's the, the beauty is s- the old, the myth is years ago, i- it, we didn't pump it in at a certain pressure, cellulose, and so it settled.

Uh, if it's settled, we can re-densepack that. We can put a hose in. Nowadays we have pressure tests we do with the machine. It's like a firm mattress. So now with injection foam, as it shrinks, there's no real remediation for that product, so- You can't put more on top of it to- Yeah. And people say they try, but since it's gonna shrink in and, and, and so it is what it is.

And so this gentleman's home, I would probably recommend, uh, maybe treating the attic 'cause his air leakage was still about 10 air changes per hour, and the new build code is, uh, um, three air changes per hour. So I, I would think a home like this, if we had densepacked the walls with cell, we would've been able to probably get it down to maybe six or seven air changes per hour. So it's, it's sorta sad. Air, air sealing is, um, something that we, we wanna do on every single home we go into 'cause there's opportunities, and then we'll manage and monitor the indoor air quality, uh, afterwards and use fans to bring in fresh air. So the system is there, um, but we run into these, uh, homes like that and we, we spend so much time trying to get the education out there, Bob, of what Wise H- Home Energy can do and, uh, uh, this show is one part of it, but another part of it is this whole marketing mystery thing that I have no idea how that w- that works. So, uh, NYSERDA has a program where they, um, encourage, uh, internships and subsidize, uh, companies like Wise Home Energy to bring on interns, uh, that are in college. So in the summer it can be a full-time position, or in the, uh, school year it can be a part-time position. And we, uh, have taken part in that program, uh, a few times over the years, and this year we, uh, uh, had the, uh, good fortune to find a marketing intern. I, I don't even know how we found our marketing intern. I'll, I'll let her talk a little bit more about it. But in studio we have Jillian, our, uh, summer intern, who has been, uh, phenomenal. So welcome, Jillian. Hello, Jeff. It's great to be here. We are excited.

Uh, you know, I know, I believe Eric, uh, Eric tells us that there was many applicants. Yes. And he met you, and he came in and said, uh, "Jillian is the person we're gonna hire." And, uh,

Eric's a trusted soul, and we said yes. And I can tell you that, uh, after maybe five weeks, uh, that, uh, Jillian has been an excellent addition to Wise Home Energy. Uh, why don't you tell us a little bit about your background at, uh, uh, c- what college you go to and, uh, what, uh, what coursework you're taking? Yeah. So right now I'm going to be a junior in the fall at

SUNY Brockport. Um, I'm a part of an organization called Brockport Brand Builders there, and that kind of gives students a background of how to begin social media marketing for real local businesses in the Brockport area. So during the school year, I helped Advantage Federal Credit Union with their social media posts and kind of writing captions and stuff for them.

Um, and during the summer I was looking for a full-time opportunity to kind of develop those skills and become a better social media marketer. And so I stumbled across your posting, it sounded like a good fit, decided to apply, and here we are. Yeah. That's pretty neat. And if you were to walk into a Wise Home Energy's office, because it's HVAC, uh, contracting, it might not resemble, uh, a law firm. So it's not, uh, the mahogany desk. So I appreciate your, uh, tolerance. We did get Jillian the nicest office though. I do have to tell you, uh, that is the nicest space. So, um, so some of the things you've done are phenomenal, but I struggle to describe it, so why not tell our audience a little bit about some of the things you've done to get the word out about Wise Home Energy? Yeah. So right now I'm developing content for all of Wise's social media channels, so that includes our YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn.

Um, I'll develop blog posts, and we'll do little teasers of that about how to educate homeowners about the things in their home and sort of the services that we might offer. Um, and it's been really great to edit these videos and create this content for this industry that I didn't really have a background prior to.

Yeah. You've definitely adapted to it and, uh, got right out there. Uh, one of the things is, uh, there's the written word, there's the spoken word, and we wanna concentrate on this, um, this video aspect because when people get this work done in their homes, it's usually should be only one time that they'll need to get it done unless they live in the home maybe longer than 20 years, they might have to get a new HVAC system. And, and so, uh, documenting what takes place in the home and the people at Wise Home Energy that do it, you've been getting some, uh, great videos of, uh, uh, some of our, um, uh, installers doing the work, and that's, that's been pretty cool. We're starting to make some rock stars and, uh, uh, Jillian's in charge of making the rock stars. So I know there's been a couple videos out there.

What are some ones that come to mind that are fun to show people something they've never seen before? More recently, we did the radon video- Mm-hmm ... about the dangers of radon in your home and how you can actually test for it with a program from New York State. Um, we've also created a video about why dense packing your home might be important for thermal transfer and why that might be a good idea for homeowners to implement. Um, so it's been really great to kind of understand how these operations of Wise really work and the services you offer. Yeah.

I, uh, this has been a dream for a long time and I, I start and stop and I'm like, I go film stuff and I, I, you know, I'm not that person that you don't want to take the family picture, you know? It's crooked, it's this and that. And, uh, Jillian has just, uh, uh, grabbed this, uh, important task and, and brought it to life and, and got it out there because people, when they're having work done on their home, they have fears, and we need to alleviate those fears. Uh, uh, one of the, one of the big things that, you know, I love to hear is people say, "Oh, th- they cleaned up so well. It was cleaner than, you know, before they got there," and that's always a, a neat thing.

We haven't gotten so far as to make the vacuum video yet, but, uh, but yeah, that's one of our, uh, pride and joys is, uh, making sure we're taking care of the client and, uh, uh, leaving the place, uh, not only more efficient, more comfortable, uh, but cleaner than, than when we got there. So, uh, so the process with the NYSERDA internship, um, sometimes NYSERDA you can, uh, uh, get listed on their site, but in order to have that internship, um, you have to register. So is that what the case was? You had to sign up and get registered on their site? Yes. So we did have to go through the registration process. Um, it involved things like uploading my resume and a cover letter to the registry. Yeah. And I believe from there, the... whatever sponsoring company can select an intern-

Yeah ... from that registry. Yeah. So it's an, it's a neat thing. It gives the opportunity for some, some real world experience, uh, for, uh, people like Jillian that want to, um, uh... And, and it can't, it doesn't just have to be marketing, it can be energy efficiency, it can be business, it can be anything. And then the company, uh, just has to outline what the intern is gonna do during their time and, and just document that. So it's a nice feature. We get it, uh, subsidized a little bit as a company and, uh, Jillian and, and other interns, uh, get that real world experience, and it's, it's been awesome and I, you know, thank you, Jillian, because, uh, sometimes it seems like your generation, sir, we're gonna, you know, they're stuck with their phone and they're not, uh, they're, they're uncertain on what to do, but you are a person who, uh, takes the, uh, task at hand and, and goes right to work and gets it done. So, uh, I appreciate that. It's, uh... And it shows not just in your work ethic, but it shows in the, the output of, of the social media content that you put out. Uh, in, in a very short time you've really put out a great amount of detail.

So we look for ideas of what people want to, what people wanna see. So email in, uh, text us. You can comment on the, on the, uh, the podcast I, I understand.

Uh, so, uh, let us know what you're looking to see out there, folks. Um, uh, an install of a furnace, a, a heat pump. Uh, uh, some of, some of the stuff we do is very difficult and in cramped and crowded spaces, so we might have to send the install crew in with some GoPro videos. So it's, uh, it's not for the faint of heart, some of the spaces we go to. Uh, so

I appreciate it, Jillian, and thank you for being here and, uh, thank you for the work you do. Yeah, Jeff, thank you. Thank you for letting me, kind of trusting me to run your socials- Yeah ... and develop content for you guys. It's a shame she has to go back to school because we probably, uh, we probably need this as a full-time position. So who's up next who wants to be an intern at Wise Home Energy and doesn't wanna go to school anymore?

Um, so, uh, what else do we have? We have a, we had a funny and an interesting story the other day, and I think as the monitoring and metering of, uh, homes, uh, come into play, uh, we'll see more of this. But we had a call where a lady was new to the home and said, "My carbon dioxide is, um, uh, rising in my home when my air conditioner's on."

So, uh- Is the alarm going off on her? Um, so it... And, and that's the CO- Oh, no, that's carbon monoxide ... CO2 and CO are, are- Yeah, that's right ... get confused often. And so we went out and, um, when the AC was on, the return in the basement was leaky

And it was pulling in through the hot water tank. So the CO2 isn't really harmful. It's an indicator of poor indoor air quality, but it is a byproduct of incomplete combustion. So more importantly is it's really bringing carbon monoxide back into the home.

Mm. So, um, so luckily she had this device, and we sealed up the return to, uh, stop this from happening, uh, in the basement. And, you know, the next step is, you know, now she's interested in getting an energy audit.

Uh, but you think of people that don't have these monitoring devices. If you get a home inspection, to my knowledge, a home inspection is just a visual inspection, so there is no combustion testing, uh, ambient CO testing, infrared scanning, blower door testing, things like that. So- Is that the standard now? There's a carbon dioxide, uh, monitoring device? Well, I didn't, I didn't dial into what she is using. Uh- Well, no, I wondered how she knew. Yeah. Yeah. We, we recommend it because it is clearly an indication of if you tighten up a home and just you breathing, uh, it tells you that we're just not exchanging the air enough. So the old myth is a house needs to breathe, but the truth is the, the people and the, uh, uh, pets need to breathe. I almost said plants, but the plants will eat the CO2, so, uh, it, it's a whole dynamic They like that. That's, that's their favorite snack. That's right.

That's right. So, uh, the energy audits are out there. If anybody had, uh, these big giant ice dams hanging from their roofs last winter, um, I've seen the weather forecast, and they say in about six to seven months, those could be coming back, uh, if you didn't fix your attic. You will get some snow, and we'll get some melt, and you will... could possibly have ice dams again. Plus, you have a hot second floor, so, uh, who wants that? So just give us a call. Uh, we have the no-cost assessment. You fill out a little paperwork. You paid for it already on your utility bill, and we'll come out and give you a, uh, no-cost assessment, talk about your concerns, show you what's going on in your home. Think of this lady who had the carbon dioxide, which was really also carbon monoxide.

Uh, we don't wanna see unhealthy, uh, homes like that. It's, uh, it's, it's our mission to correct those, so. Is this the time of year to do the blower door tests? Or- Absolutely. Th- this is when you wanna do it? Yeah. It... Really, the blower door coupled with an infrared scan, you can do it any time. Um, there's additional manometers, pressure probes that we can check for different spaces to see how leaky they are.

Uh, it's, it's all science-based. So, um- And you've, and a- at least in part, you've paid for it already. Absolutely. It's a fee on your utility bill. I know there's about

74, uh, and most of them are mysterious, but one of them is this systems benefit charge that you pay into. Good to know. Great advice. Jillian, great meeting you. Thanks for stopping by, being part of the show. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Uh, uh, thank, uh, Jeff. It was his idea. And you've been listening to the Wise

Home Energy Show, brought to you ironically by Wise Home Energy. Uh, Jeff Flaherty, our host. Uh, the podcast always available at wysl1040.com. And give them the phone number one more time, Jeff.

585-270-5836. Good to go, and we'll see you next time here on WYSL 1040.