Carbon Monoxide, Oversized Furnaces, and Why Fireplaces Lie to You

This podcast is brought to you by Open Door Mission, Restoring Hope and Changing Lives. opendoormission.com. Well, thanks for joining us. It is another edition of the Wise Home Energy Show here on, the

Voice of Liberty. And we have your host for the most, Jeff Flaherty. Pure energy. Hey, Bob. Hey, Jeff. Thank you for having me back in. Oh, listen, mate, uh, w- we can't stay away. Well, I'm always surprised the door is unlocked when I get here.

I'm waiting for the day that someday it's gonna be locked. No, that's not gonna happen. All right, good news. Good news. Not when we know Jeff's gonna be in the house. Uh, summer's in full swing.

Boy, is it ever. As, uh, as of the time we write... we, uh, we record this, uh, towards the late July time period, we've had some hot weather. We have. We have. I was, um, looking at some of the, the recent news stories of, uh, some of the infrastructure. We always talk about energy w- Wise Home Energy from energy at the end use point in the home and, and I see that RG&E, NYSEG, uh, well, I think it was RG&E is, is, uh, looking for a rate increase. They always seem to be looking for rate increases, right? It's, it's kind of the, the way of the world these days. But some of it was, uh, for infrastructure upgrades, and, um, that i- that's kind of an interesting thing. We really see that, uh, you know, uh, we see it in, in government entities. Uh, we see it in our own home. Sometimes I look around and say, "Oh, sometimes we gotta, we gotta put some money toward, uh, this, uh, deferred maintenance we have." And I think they have that with the utilities and, and the powers that be shift the money and say, "We wanna move to electric, uh, for heat pumps, and we wanna put in these car chargers."

Uh, but sometimes, as my dad always used to say, uh, not every doctor or lawyer graduates at the top of their class. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, uh, that might happen with politicians and lobbyists. They lobby. You think? They lobby to get their, their thing approved, but then the actual how to, how to implement it becomes the problem. And it was interesting, the stats.

I mean, they really had some, some heavy infrastructure that they really needed to, uh, start upgrading here, or there was gonna be some problems down the road. And, uh, so I'm not a big fan of, uh, everything going up on. prices, but, uh, I am a fan of, uh, safe infrastructure and- Well, sure, everybody is. Uh, but the, the... Here's the, here's the problem.

Uh, as you have succinctly, uh, pointed out, this whole ship is, uh, piloted by politicians, and politicians are allergic to unpopular causes. Uh,

Avangrid, the RG&E, NYSEG, National Grid people, have not exactly covered themselves with glory over the last three years in terms of service.

No. No. They just, uh, recently had a problem where their auto-pay customers, uh, the, the system defaulted and didn't collect, so they started either sending shutoff notices and, uh- I know. They keep doing this stuff. Yeah. It's goofy. I, I like technology until it doesn't work, and sometimes that's, that's certainly the case. We hear a lot of complaints with the new smart meters. Some of the theory there is, uh, that the old meters, um, for 15, 20 years that I've been in the industry, the theory was people would call up and say, "There's something wrong with my meter." And mechanically, everybody always said, "Well, meters don't speed up. They generally don't charge you more. They tend to... On the old analog revolutions, they tend to slow down. So it's usually in your favor. You generally don't want a new meter put in, in your home because it tends to be more accurate."

So, um, so yeah, they've certainly had some, some challenges, and they're beholden to the politicians who implement these, these, "Hey, we're gonna make car, uh, electric cars and put them in all the homes." Uh, and they've really kinda... They're kinda stuck in a rock and a hard place

'cause they say, "Well, our infrastructure isn't really set up for that." Mm-hmm. Um, I think one said, uh, you know, the amount of car chargers you put in, uh, in a recent area, it's like 150 to 200 homes that you're gonna need to power.

So that, that power is not sitting there. And, and then you look at the actual power creation. So RG&E and NYSEG and National Grid, they don't, they don't create the power. They were separated from that, uh, power creation and, and supply of the power years ago. They just deliver it to the homes.

And, uh, there's really these... You think of the infrastructure, but there's these plants that are typically coal-fired that are called emergency plants or, uh, peak demand plants, and there is this plan to, to shut them down.

And it may not be a good idea. Years ago when I, I worked with, uh, Honeywell early in my career, we, uh, uh, one of our cohorts had a, uh, sailboat up in Oswego, and we'd go out sailing with him and, and I'd see this big plant and I'd say, "What is this plant?" And he'd say, "This was a coal-fired plant. This is an emergency backup plant." And, and

I forgot the, the data, but once a month, somebody had to go and fire up this plant to make sure that it was ready to run when we needed it in, in peak demand. So we, we've certainly had some hotter peaks, um, i- in, in New York, uh, and across the US in the summertime.

And more homes have AC. We used to think of it as, uh, clearly a luxury. I remember as a kid growing up, uh, a '60s-built home, um, we, uh, really had the, the nice upgrade and we put ceiling fans in the bedrooms, and that was, that was, uh- That's your air conditioning ... that was living luxury back then. And, uh, you know, side note, I'm kind of addicted to the fan noise, if you know anybody who's like that, who has to have that fan noise. Um-

Me too. But that was, that was the air conditioning of the day, and now we just, um, we see more and more homes with air conditioners, so there's more and more load on the system. And I think, um, we don't talk about it much. We don't talk about the details and, and it's something that- We hope that the powers that be, the politicians and the policymakers, uh, think clearly about it. I, I did hear, uh, uh, the, uh, governor, uh, say suddenly she was pro-nuclear, and I, I thought that was very interesting. When we talk of green energy, and I've done some of the research, and nuclear has been around for a long time, and there's a lot of scare to it of problems, but there's really no hard factual data of problems. I mean- All driven by the media-

Yeah ... and pop culture. I mean, one of the biggest ones that ever happened was a, uh, really sort of an unforeseeable, uh, tsunami in Japan, as I recall, some 20 years ago. And, um, and, and, and recently they just, um, uh... A news story came out that Japan was putting online, uh, a new Yoroi act-- uh, reactor, and it's the size of a shipping container.

Yeah, right. Self-contained, um, I forgot how many homes it can power. It can run for 10 years, uh, self-shutdown features. It has, uh, so many advances and, um, it, it, it's just amazing. It said Japan aimed to install, uh, 50 more of these reactors, um, by 2030 as part of its energy transformation.

So, uh, we certainly, uh, whether it's wind or solar or nuclear, we certainly, uh, myself included, we can all say NIMBY, right? We-- not in my backyard. That is a great solution someplace else. But, uh, uh, I think it's, um, uh, you know...

One of the comments, somebody said that, you know, this reactor, you know, can power, um, uh, sits in a, a shipping container, can power, uh, you know, uh, 100 homes or something like that, or I forgot what the number was, and one guy commented and said, "I, I know there's 100 solar fields that can power one shipping container," uh, which I thought was kind of a comical- Uh ... you know- Yeah ... mock of, of- Only if it-- if the sun shines all the time. Right. Which it doesn't. Yeah, SMRs, uh, and Toshiba, the Japanese manufacturer, is a, uh, is a leader in this field, and they've got one that's the size of a dumpster- It's amazing ... that will, that will power a city like the size of Batavia or Canandaigua-

Yeah ... for 25 or 30 years. It can't melt down. Yeah. It never needs refueling. It requires no, uh, you know, human attention, and you build-- you bury it. Yeah. It's buried in the ground. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah, like 60 feet down. There's no... It, it's, you know, impervious to any kind of natural disasters. Yeah. It's amazing. It's, and it's... We, we gotta start thinking beyond our, um, uh, our little avenue that we work in. You know, I,

I, I, I run up against contractors that I'm in a home and they, the customer said, "Oh, they want to foam my roof deck." And I said, "Well, I w- you would never foam a roof deck like this, ever." Um, I s- I suspect that contractor only installed foam. And they, and they said, "Yes, that's exactly the case." So we have to start thinking in terms of diversification. We think of that in terms of our, um, retirement plans, right? If we put all our eggs in one basket, uh, there's a likelihood small percent of it'll go through the moon and there's a large percentage that'll drop to the bottom of the ocean and we will have nothing. So we diversify.

And you can really go online and look at the New York State, uh, independent, um, producers and, and kind of see their graphs. And, uh, I, I just think it's, um, something that we really should, should look at. Uh, I don't know if we've built a nuclear plant in 40 years. I think Atlanta maybe was gonna have one come online.

But I think it's a viable, uh, green energy. Uh, there's no, um, byproducts that come out of it or the old system. It was just hot water, uh, that we would pump into Lake Ontario.

So I think we, we have to think of the whole system. We just think of that, what we're putting in our homes and how we, how we turn on those lights. But we want those, uh, reliable sources and the, and the system has to be able to switch between hydro and, uh, nuclear and wind and, and, um, fossil fuels. And we're gonna need that mix until, uh, we're at a stage where we can say, "Hey, we, we can knock off one of these."

But right now, I think, uh, all s- all providers are on the table, so. Absolutely. I'm a fan of nuclear. Yeah. Absolutely. So I was in a home, uh, recently the other day. It was kind of interesting.

I, um... So the Empower program is a, a, a low to moderate income program. They'll do some, uh, uh, se- heavy grants. Sometimes you can get some no-cost, uh, insulation.

And we as a provider will get sent over, uh, referrals, people that apply through the state, and we'll get sent, uh, random, um, folks. And, and, uh, I've been starting to kind of pre-screen them just to make sure that there's some people's goals that don't match up. They want windows. The program doesn't do it. They want a heated driveway.

Program doesn't do it. So instead of wasting our time, I kind of screen them a little bit. And this one gentleman, uh, it was only about three, four months ago, he wanted to, um, insulate his attic. And I said, "Well, tell me about your attic."

And he said that, um, uh... I said, "What is it heated and cooled with?" And he said, "Well, there's radiators up there, but there's no boiler."

He said, "I, uh, uh, my house has a furnace." And I said, "Well, the program wouldn't really do that. They don't wanna... Their, their goal isn't to expand space. It's, it's to condition the actual conditioned space." And so

I passed on the project and I declined it and so it goes to another contractor. So he called me, um, for a heat pump for his third floor a couple weeks ago and, uh, I looked at the job and realized that I hadn't done it and I went out and I said

Did you ever-- Have you ever insulated the attic?" And he said, "Yeah, I had it insulated through Empower." And I said, "Oh, okay." And I came over and I walked up, man, I opened the door to the attic, the heat just pummeled me. And I looked in some of these knee walls and there was some foam and it had pulled away from the studs and there was a little hatch in the ceiling and I looked up there and there was some insulation up there. But there was two-foot slopes all the way around. It was kind of a cut up, um, um, Rochester City, uh, four-square home with like three different rooms and there was these two-foot slopes between the attic and the knee walls and the infrared camera was just lit up like

Christmas. It was unbelievable. I, I picked a hot day, but I got temperatures on the surface of 107 degrees. Whoa! So the contractor, in my opinion, uh, shouldn't have really been doing this insulation. I, I-- Maybe you can get it approved through the state. There's maybe exemptions and things. But now they've missed this critical two-foot area all the way around the home. I-If I were to quote it, I can't quote it at a dollar price per square foot

'cause it's so small, but it is so instrumental, uh, that it's just kinda gonna ruin it. So-- And I have to say, "Well, your heat pump that you wanna add up here, it, it's gonna work a lot harder, you know, to overcome 107 degrees of, of surface temperature." So it's important to choose, uh, the right contractor and figure out what you want out of, uh, the work you're having done.

Um, people will co- uh, come and install most, anything you want. Uh, how you want it to perform is probably a different guarantee that you're gonna be looking for. So those are the type of things that, uh, we try to do. We ch- we don't say yes to everybody who wants something installed in their home because we, uh, want you to speak kindly of us in two, five, and 10 years down the road and, um, it's, uh, it stinks for us to go out to these homes and see some of these, uh, goofy things we see. And, and i-in regards to our, uh, approach, uh, we recently had a, a customer call up and we'd foamed some, uh, basement rim joists and he had a finished basement and he had recently tore down some walls that exposed some areas that, uh, we didn't foam because we didn't have access to it at that time and he wanted us to come back out and I sort of thought, "Well, I don't know if this is really our responsibility."

But it was three years later and it, it wasn't much and we went out and, um, uh, just did that touch up and he wrote us a nice glowing, uh, review online that, you know, this company came back three years later to, to honor the work that they had originally spec'd. So, uh- See there, folks?

Responsible operators. Yeah, that's- Wi-Wise Home Energy. That's what we're looking for and that's-- we're 100% locally owned company. Uh, we have so many, uh, these publicly traded companies. You don't really know it. You have these, these old names that you've been familiar with for 50 years, but, um, uh, you might not be getting that personalized service and once the money's collected, you may not be getting those phone calls back, uh, to, to handle any issues you have. So, uh, that's our process.

We're, uh, looking to really, uh, build a long-term relationship for you. Once you insulate a home, uh, it really should not need to be insulated for the next 20, 30 years. Uh, so you, you should be good to go if the design has been chosen properly and that's, that's the type of services we're offering.

We access those New York State grants. We access the, um, new, uh, New York no cost assessments and really figure out what you want and then we provide some opportunities or options for you to improve the home. So, um, give us- Give them, give them the phone number.

Yeah, give us a call or text 585-270-5836. Uh, we, we, we get a lot of calls and, and people-- uh, recently just had a call that said, um, "Hey, you know, my, uh, a relative has put in the AC and he's, he's done everything he could possibly do and done a great job, but my second floor is still hot and he recommended I should call you." And I thought, "That's, that's a pretty good recommendation." And knowing that you, you've gone as far as you could by tweaking the mechanical system, now it's time to look at the envelope. It's not quite the order I would have suggested, but at least now they've, you know, uh, gone out and sought some professional, uh, approach to diagnosing and, and upgrading the home and, and that's the type of things that, uh, uh, we like to do. Uh, that's fun to be able to, you know, come into a home.

It's your personal, uh, space that you want to be your refuge from work or the trials and tribulations of the road. Just driving down the road is a crazy endeavor these days and you wanna be able to come home to that home and have that thing very comfortable. You don't want that swampy, uh, uh, feel of high humidity. You don't want that unbearable second floor where you have a central air conditioning, but you also have a window unit in there to, to compensate for something wrong in the home and, uh, so that's, that's what we're looking to do. That's the fun thing we like to do and we specialize in. Uh, it gives us a lot of gratification, um, up and down the line. Uh, we spend a lot of time on training our folks and, and making sure that they know that, um, that's what we're there to do. We're not just there to install things. We're there to correct some long-term problems and make those long-term solutions. So- The long view. So, uh, what geographic area, Jeff, does Wise Home Energy.

serve? That is a great question. I, you know, I'm looking at the, a map of WISL coverage and it's, it's almost kinda maps that out pretty good. So we do Monroe County and the, uh, contiguous counties around there. We do also do

Erie County and, uh, we cover a little bit of the Southern Tier, some Steuben and Wa- uh, Schuyler and, uh, Chemung County. So, um, that's, that's a pretty good, uh, coverage area. Uh, we have success stories in all those counties and, um-

It just seems some people are like, "Well, you're traveling a little far." It's, it's, uh... But our, our expertise is worth it. Um, sometimes we'll take some special jobs, um, out- outside our area. We have a, a large project in, uh, Baldwinsville that, um, they just, uh, had a beautiful home that just was not performing right. And when they want the, the right solution, we, and, and it looks like a fit, we, you know, we may travel outside our, uh, normal, um, territory. So that's what we're looking for, uh, is, is fixing people's problems. We don't just wanna sell you something. We can, if you'd like. If that's what you want, you just want a price, we can, we can' do that also. But, uh, but getting back to the, the, um, infrastructure, the home infrastructure, uh, maintenance. I' was dealing with a, a lady who called up who, uh, just bought a home and, uh, you know, buying a home, these typical situation. There's no, inspection.

You, you take it or leave it. But they had advertised it, the, you know, regular maintenance on all this stuff, and this lady had a health issue, uh, is what she told me over the phone, communicated that' to everybody that this AC, um... And they, and they said, "Oh, this has been serviced. This all works great." And, and she got in there, and it wasn't working, and she had a repairman out, and, um, she wanted to just double-check if, if things were being, you know, um, repaired properly. She had a lot of faith in the, the repairman.

I said, "Send me some pictures." And she had some videos of the, the unit, and I instantly looked at the unit and said, "This is 20 years old with clearly no, um, maintenance on it, and that's why the parts and pieces are breaking." And, uh, she showed me the picture of the furnace, and, uh, there were some dead mice in there.

So it, it sounded like there was little to no maintenance. And so people can say they're doing maintenance, but what is, what is their checklist? Um, some people don't own combustion analyzers to, to measure, uh, the furnace. So turning it on and it blowing heat out the vent is completely different than it operating properly and safely. So we want these combustion byproducts to be within the standards of the manufacturer. Uh, and, and yes, they're going outside the home, but if by chance it ever, uh, something were to fail or a, a bird were to come into the home, at least it's a much lower combustion byproduct to, uh, come into the home. So that's what we're looking for. Some, some years ago, I was in a home for, uh, Empower, and some people think, you know, I'm there to do a America's Home Makeover, and that's not the case. And so they told me some story about how their, their chimney, um, uh, maybe had a soot fire, but it, it, it screwed up their furnace and, um, and there was a problem, and they weren't supposed to use. the two together. And it was the wife telling me, and the husband wasn't there. And

I went down in the basement, and I couldn't understand the story, and then I tested the boiler. Uh, we're looking for, uh, under 100 parts per million, uh, CO. This, was, over 2,000 parts. The, machine will, will tap out. Whoa. It'll, it'll X out, so I don't even know what the real parts per million. So the fire department, when I came up and, asked more, she said, "Well, they said open your window when you burn your fireplace."

So then it, then it hit me, and I did some tests. So your fireplace, it's, a test that we don't do when we're in a home 'cause it's very difficult to duplicate. But when you open a... When you burn a, um, just a, a regular wood-burning fireplace with maybe some glass doors, that is churning a lot of air. It' was, eating, it's eating a lot of air to feed that fire. That goes up through the chimney. Air has to come in the home. to replenish that. That's why fireplaces, um, that aren't sealed, uh, wood burners and things like that are just, they're just using up so much air that the room where the fireplace is, is, warm, but the other rooms become colder- Hmm ... 'cause it's sucking the air in. So it's basically a, like a cosmetic, uh, environmental thing. Makes you feel all comfy, cozy. It does. But it's actually having the opposite effect. It can if it's not dialed in properly and it's, it's, uh, it, it doesn't have. controls that control that air, and that's what those sealed wood burners do. And, and in a perfect world, you get your air from outside. You get a pipe that gets it from outside for the combustion.

So, uh, you know, I said, "Well, in the program, we're gonna, we're gonna, uh, do a clean and tune on this, lower the CO." And the husband called me up and said, "I want a new boiler." And I said,

"Well, I, you know, there's... I, I want a new car, a new boat, a new... I want all these things, but our wants don't always match up to what we're gonna get." And he was demanding, and I, and I said,

"You-- The fire department told you, open the window when you burn the fireplace." Uh, and the home was tight. The home was fairly tight. I think it was, like, 1,600 CFM, and it wasn't very big. And we air sealed it, and I think knocked another 400 off it. But just, you know, just kept telling him, "This is a use thing. This is how you use your home." Um, and I, I don't know. I wonder someday if fireplaces will go by the wayside, or they'll be very specific like that with this dedicated combustion air from outside. That's what your 90% furnace is. There's a PVC pipe, there should be, uh, that brings air into the combustion box, burns it, and then it exhausts it out. So it doesn't have any effect on your, um, air s- uh, cycle of your home. It's not using indoor air for the combustion. But you still get the radiant heat from the fireplace, yes? You, you do, yeah. And they, and they have some upgrades to them in, in, um, um, fireboxes and, and blowers that try to pull some of the heat off. So I, I have a friend up in Saratoga who's... He's got a great system, um, where his is just a- Beautiful big old, uh, sealed wood burner with the glass. It has a little air control, but it takes its, uh, air from outside. The pipe is getting, you know, most if not all of the air from outside for the combustion, and this room steams up and he can really heat this home with it. Is that one of those heat layer fireplaces? Uh- It's got the, the, the little plenum around it. I forget exactly what it was, but he researched it. The, the view was beautiful. His wife said, "Whatever you put in here, I want the best looking. I want the biggest glass you can get." So to sit in front of that fireplace up in, uh, the cold, uh, country up in, uh, Saranac Lake is, uh, is pretty neat. So- It gets pretty chilly up there. It does. It does. So yeah, so, uh, you know, we still have all the grants and rebates available. Uh, it's, it's, uh, give us a call. It's, we, we get some-- we're getting the emergency calls, "My house is really hot." Uh, and you know, people's, you know... I, I've quoted some people and we couldn't get to them, but I, I would give them honest information. "That size they're quoting you is too big. You should not buy that furnace." Uh, you know, tell them to downsize it. You know, if you can wait, we'll, we'll downsize it. But, uh, we just try to give them, uh, some good, honest information over the phone if we can't get out there and, and service it. And hopefully someday we'll have a website where you can kind of plug in, uh, some of your, uh, home characteristics and it'll spit you out some, some ranges of maybe what's a good size, uh, furnace and air conditioner. We're working on some, some upgrades on the website. That's a cool idea. Yeah, 'cause it's, uh, we still got the people out there just selling bigger is better and, uh, it's just not always the case.

So, uh, yeah, give us a call, 585-270-5836. Uh, visit us on the web. We're looking to have that website, uh, a little more updated so we can, you know, help you out and make sure you're getting the best, uh, information possible.

Um, heat pumps, are, are, uh, still incentivized. There's a myth of that, you know, they are very efficient compared to electric resistance and propane, uh, and oil. But if you have a 90%, uh, high efficiency furnace, it, it's gonna be, uh, very similar or you might, uh, pay a little bit more. It just depends on what your desire is for what you wanna heat and cool your home with. So, uh, we get this, you know, we, we advertise they're very efficient. I say, they're very efficient.

Um, but what does that mean? Compared to what? And, uh, sometimes we have to get in the home and educate people that, well, you know, this is, this is something that maybe, uh, isn't a right fit for you, depending on if you're looking for low, low operating costs, maybe a dual fuel system works for you. So. The voice of wisdom. Yep, that's, uh, Wise Home Energy's

Jeff Flaherty. Don't be uncomfortable in your home. Don't be hot, humid, sticky, uh, uh, uncomfortable. Uh, pick up the phone. Call-

585-270-5836. And thanks, Jeff, for coming in for another edition of the Wise Home Energy Show here on the Voice of Liberty.

If you missed it, podcast always available for you, wysl1040.com. Thanks for listening.