A House Needs to Breathe, or Does It? With Dr. Allison Bailes

It's another Wise Home Energy Show. Pure energy. Thank you, Mr. Spock, and welcome on in here to another edition of the program. We have Jeff Flaherty from Wise Home Energy. Hey, Jeff. Hey, Bob. Thanks for having me back in the Wise Home Energy Show. scene. Absolutely. Uh, always a pleasure. So summer's rolling on here, and people are just using that energy, and, uh, they're trying to keep their... trying to not heat their home. Right.

Yeah, it's, uh, AC is the, uh, word of the summer, and, uh, and certainly indoor air quality with, uh, some of our, uh, smoke that we used to see in the West Coast, we're getting it finally in the East Coast.

So we now, uh... we used to empathize with the folks out there. Now we're really living the same, uh, conditions that they've lived f- with for years. Yeah, it just keeps coming and going. I, I, I guess these, uh, Canadian wildfires are gonna keep going possibly. I, I guess some of them are out, but others expect are gonna continue to burn right into the fall. Yeah. It's amazing, nature. We don't really have that much control over it, right? Volcanoes blow up, we can't put a cap on them, as far as I know. I... maybe the science is there. But, uh, wildfires take off on their own, a lightning strike, and, uh, it, it just goes.

So we're left to deal with how do we, how do we make it safe for, uh, our, our family, friends, and loved ones, so. So anyway, uh, you, know, part of the act here is making sure that your home is energy. efficient and is tight, uh, so that you're not breathing in those particulates and the s- smells from outside and, and, uh, having, having a healthy environment for your family. Yeah, without a doubt. And we, um, you know, we see the, the kind of the housing shortage locally here, and, uh, one of the... it's, probably nationwide, but one of the, uh, things we can do for that is supply. We wanna increase supply, so we see, uh, new build homes. Uh, even though the, pricing, uh, is, uh, challenging, uh, for new builds, we're, we're still seeing, uh, some new build construction. And, we had a call recently, a couple months ago, of a gentleman with, a, a two-year-old home built in, uh, 2021, and, uh, built to code, and, and he had comfort issues. And you would think with a brand new built home built to code, uh, we didn't, we didn't inspect the... or we didn't look into all the code, uh, requirements for his home, uh, but we would think that that would be a comfortable home. And he had a seven-degree temperature differential between a bedroom and the living space. So- Whoa. And- In a brand new home. Yeah. And it was a child's, uh, bedroom, so he was very concerned, and, uh, seven degrees colder in the winter and seven degrees hotter in the summer. So he called us out and, you know, we did the diagnosis and, uh, as we always talk about that blower door test, uh, we f- proposed, um, really taking out the insulation, properly air sealing the home to our, standards, and re-insulating. And so we did that. It was a 2,600, uh, square foot home. We started with a, a blower door test. We always talk about the measures, how much air leaks out of the home.

We started at 2,174, uh, cubic foot per minute, 50, uh, pascals, and we lowered it to 1,479, uh, CFM, 50 pascals, which doesn't mean much, but it's a 32% drop in the air leakage of the home, and the results were instantaneous. He was thrilled, uh, went online, wrote a, a detailed review of that improvement. So most people think that, "Hey, I got a brand new built home. It's gonna perform great." And the challenge is built to code is it passed. And so when we take a test, uh, or if we're, uh, have kids in school and they take a test, they get a 70, we're like,

"Eh, you passed." Uh, we might be looking for the 80s and 90s. And so- I would think, yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. Brand new home. I know that that was not cheap.

Yeah. So a- and it was, it was not a, it was not a production builder. It was a custom builder, and I'm, I'm not here. to th- you know, throw that, but the design part is, you know, was it in the contract to make the home comfortable? Was it in the contract to...

it was just in the contract to, you know, make the kitchen look nice, the bathroom look nice, and here's your square footage. So, uh, w- we' can't really control that. You know, we'd, we'd certainly love builders to, to get more involved in the design process of the, of the comfort and not so much of the visual. Visual is important for sure.

Uh, but that, that really shows that that's probably happening a lot and, and, and the reality is the energy probably, the usage was probably pretty decent in a home that size.

Um, and with that blower door, it probably wasn't bad. And, and so nobody would probably notice except it was, it was uncomfortable.

And- But it was fairly extensive correction though. You took... you say you took all the insulation out. Well, of the attic. Yeah. Oh, okay. So, you know, we didn't, we didn't get the walls and, um, and there's some, some cantilevers, some unique features, but people like those unique features. The architects, uh, make a lot of work for us. Uh, so we... it, it's interesting, um, because normally people just wanna take my information and go back to a builder and, and I just tell them, "I don't think it's gonna work like that." You know?

That you didn't... you... they' built it to code, you know, and the code officials inspected it. They're... inspected the paperwork and that's it. So we, you know, I started in this industry, uh, some 17 years. ago and, uh, I start with my, my first, uh, certification and, uh, you know, keep going. from there and, and I, w- I, wouldn't have known how to fix this home after my first certification. After my second certification,

I wouldn't have known. After my third, uh, really we, we probably would've looked at the blower door and said, "That's great." And, and as you keep increasing your knowledge, um, you, you get to, you fix more troublesome jobs, these, are the type of jobs that many companies are passing on and, and we get those calls. But how do we, how do we, you know, get that knowledge base? Um, so one thing Wise Home

Energy does is we always invest in our, our, our knowledge. So we, we make sure our people are taking, uh, continuing education classes. And, and so there's experts around the country

That we, uh, we look to and see where they're on the forefront of the technology and, and, uh, see where the, the, the, the new, uh, processes are going of how we can fix homes properly. And, um, we're lucky enough to have one of those, uh, people with us today.

Um, this gentleman is the author of the book A House Needs to Breathe, or Does It? So I, I should say that again. It's, uh, in parentheses, A House Needs to Breathe, or Does It? An Introduction to Building Science.

And, uh, this gentleman, uh, um, followed him for years at some of the different conferences we go to. Um, I'm either sitting in on the class, or some of the people at Wise Home Energy are sitting in the class, uh, because he's, um, you know, just an expert in the field. He has a doctorate in physics, and, uh, he, uh, also writes the Energy Vanguard blog. So that's the type of people we, um, we look to, to, um, you know, advance our knowledge. And, and I wish more people would follow, uh, people like our, our guest here because it's, it's how we, how we keep improving. You can't, you can't be stagnant. What I knew 30 years ago isn't, isn't gonna be, um, that relevant today, uh, on fixing homes, so. Well, that's fantastic. Well, let's meet him together here on the Wise Home Energy Show on WYSL.

All. right. Let's bring our guest in, Dr. Allison Bailes III. Uh, yes, and he is the author of a book with a provocative title, A House

Needs to Breathe, or Does It? Uh, Allison, welcome to the program. Well, thank you. I'm glad to be here. Let's, uh, let's, uh, get to know. you a little bit. Uh, what is your background and, uh, what do you do other than write books about, uh, houses and, respiration? Yeah. Uh, well, um, my background is physics. I have too many degrees in physics, and I was in academia when I changed careers

20 years ago. I, uh, um, was teaching at a small college in Georgia, which, you know, that's the... That job is what brought me to Georgia. I, I was teaching there. I hated the job, not because of the teaching, but because of my colleagues. The most dysfunctional group of people in the world. So I built a house, and that was therapy and, uh, launching me into a new career, the building science. And so this is kind of a learn by doing experience for, you as you built this? Had you never built a house before? I had never built anything bigger than a bookcase before. I was handy with tools.

I'd rebuilt a couple of engines and things like that, but I'd never, you know, done that kind of work. So. it was great, and I loved it. I loved spending the, you know, two full summers working on that house. I mean, it was a two-year project, and, um, I, I... The whole time

I thought it was a two-month project. I was always just two months out, so the power of self-delusion kept me going. Gotcha. Okay. So, and, and in the process, uh, you learned... Of course, you've always been interested in energy, have you not? Yes. Yeah, energy efficiency, um, environmental stuff, um, that, you know,

'cause I remember when I was in fifth grade, uh, the, you know, 1971 or so, you know, the EPA had just been founded, the Ohio River had been on fire- Mm ... a few years earlier, and- Ah, yes

... you know, it was a big time for environmental stuff- Mm ... and that influenced me as a kid. Mm-hmm. And, um, so I wanted to work in that field w- and, uh, brought my physics background to that eventually. It took me a while to get to, you know, working in this field, but, um, yeah, the last 20 years in this field, I've been doing a number of things. My company, Energy Vanguard, does residential HVAC design, and we do consulting and training. I go out and speak and, um, you know, I'm on this book tour right now, for the, for the book up here in the Northeast.

Yeah, been a great experience, and, uh, we just were, uh, lucky to, uh, have him come to Rochester, and had a nice group out, uh, recently, uh, you know, for, uh, a talk by Dr. Allison

Bailes and, uh- This is like- ... promoting the book, and it's just, it's, uh, it's great. As I said before, you know, we as practitioners out in the houses, fixing the houses, need to have, uh, this, this front line of, uh, experts. And, uh, we're, we're fortunate enough to not only have him in the industry, but also have him in the area today, so it's great. So this is kinda like continu- continuing legal education for attorneys. This is, uh- 100% ... you guys are just always out there absorbing a, a new perspective. Well, I always say that the first, uh, building science certification gives you just enough information to break houses. It, it really does. 'Cause you're like, "I'm fired up. I understand this," and you don't really know anything. Mm.

So you run right out, and, uh, you have to make mistakes, and they can be, they can be very costly mistakes. So, um, that's why we, uh, you know, we have to continue our education. And so, you know, as I said previously, uh, you know, we, um, uh, Dr. Bailes is, um, a speaker on, uh, uh, the national tour. Uh, there's a national conference every year, and then there's regional conferences every other year, so, uh, myself or, uh, our team is, is usually sitting in on his sessions. By the way, we just wanna jump in here and say that this continuing education, uh, plus the experience that Jeff's talking about, and that other voice of, uh, Jeff Flaherty of Wise Home Energy, uh, is another reason why Wise is a great choice, uh, if you're feeling like you're, you, you, you, you're gonna hate your home if you don't do something about it, 'cause you're just never comfortable. You're hot in the summer, you're cold in the winter, and it's driving you crazy. Give them the phone number to call, Jeff. Right. Don't hate your home. Pick up the phone. 585-270-5836.

Wise Home Energy. All right. So let's continue with our chat here with, uh, Allison Bailes. Uh, go ahead, Jeff. I'll- Sure. So I- ... toss it to you. Yeah, really, uh, would like to talk about the book.

I mean, is the, you know, uh, you know, is the book, uh, more for contractors, or would you say it's also for the everyday person? Because there's just a wealth of information in there. Yeah. It's, uh, great question, and

I, I, in the preface, I a- address that issue a little bit. I said, you know, really this book is for any... It doesn't matter what you're doing, what your background is. Um, y- a lot of people tell me that, that anybody can understand the way I write things. Mm-hmm. And

I, I, um... And that's a good thing. So, and I have people, uh, who read the blog, who, who've bought the book and, and enjoyed it, who are, uh, builders, contractors, uh, program people, real estate agents, home inspectors, homeowners, architects. Uh, so it's, it's a wide range of people- Yeah ... in different backgrounds. It's just anybody who's, who's fairly early on the building science learning curve is, is who I describe. You know, somebody who has an interest in learning how all this stuff works and, um, and is willing to, you know, spend some time learning it. Well, yeah, absolutely. We- And it's well, it's well packaged and, um, you know, just earlier today we opened up one of the doors here at the studio and it stuck a little bit. So right, that would be a little bit of, uh, the moisture swelling and, uh, the moisture load in the home, and that information is, is, is in the book. And, uh, you know, a lot of times we get the calls of, "Well, I just replaced my furnace and did my insulation and, uh, replaced my windows, and

I'd like to get an energy audit." And, and I think, "Well, what for?" Yeah. Say, hopefully you did it right 'cause if you did it wrong, the... my bill's not gonna be, uh, you know, telling you, "Oh, it's a $40 fix. Run down to the big box store and-"

"... uh, get some weather strips." So. That train has left the station. So that knowledge base, uh, we'd love to see more builders, uh, really, really get, uh, involved and, and get your book because it's, um, it, it, it's... You know, the, the play on words, uh, if I, if I'm... Maybe I'm taking it out of context, but it's the, it's the saying that we hear a lot, "Well, let's insulate your home." "Oh, no, no, I'm, I'm a firm believer a house needs to breathe." So I... Is that how the, uh... How did the, the, the title of the book come about? Yeah, that's pretty much it. I, I have had lots of conversations with people, a lot of them builders who, who say,

"Oh, well, no, we shouldn't build these houses too tight. A house needs to breathe." And they say, "Let, let's leave lots of random leaks in the building enclosure so that air can leak in from the garage, that nasty air from the garage with carbon monoxide and pesticides and gasoline- Yeah ... fumes and, and the air from the attic being sucked through the dead squirrel and the air from the, the nasty basement."

That's the way it works. That's the way it works. Yeah. Hey, listen, a rowboat needs to breathe, so let's, uh- ... leave some holes in the bottom and let the- Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's the same thing. So when you're not writing books, uh, what's your, what's your favorite, uh, uh, thing to do? Uh, is it speaking to, uh, contractors like myself? I mean, you're definitely, uh, considered the, uh, expert in the nation on, uh, uh, building science, and there's a lot of people that look to you. And, and we love to, to know the speaking tour- Yeah ... and, and, and also the blog is, uh, something that we, we jump on. Which is... What's your favorite thing to do out of, out of those?

Well, uh, my favorite thing to do, yeah, I, I love going out and speaking and meeting people and, and, you know, this, this tour is, is great. And in the middle of this tour is, uh, w- my favorite event of the year, which is informally called Building Science Summer

Camp. Ooh. Formally called the Westford Symposium on Building Science, and I've been going to that since 2011. It's incredible. Some of the, the best people... And you said I'm the expert in the nation. Well, I'm one of, of the bunch of experts, you know. And a, a lot of them will be- Right ... in Westford, Massachusetts next week. So. Absolutely.

Uh, yeah, I, I love doing that. And, uh, when I'm at home, I, I love working on my house. I have a 1961 ranch house in Atlanta, Georgia, and I've been doing lots of work on that. It's, it's pretty efficient right now for a 1961 house, and I've got a lot of work to do. The radon levels are elevated and- Ah ... so still, still working. I'm, I'm, I'm doing the basement right now. Okay. That's my big project. So as we say, the cobbler's, uh, kids have no shoes. Sometimes it's a work in progress in our house- Yes ... right? So I've gotten a few things done and tightened it down, same thing, and there's still some projects.

But once you fix houses all week, you don't wanna go home and fix your own house is the, is usually the way it works, so. I would imagine that from region to region, you run into, uh, different, uh, uh, different challenges in terms of, you know, energy efficiency and leakage and so forth. Like, uh, you, you say that you're in a '61, you know, uh, ranch in

Georgia, and I know a lot of houses in the South are, don't have basements. They, they build them on a slab. So I'm thinking all that concrete has got to, has got to pose some challenges.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, in Atlanta, we're pretty hilly, and we have lots of houses with basements, lots of houses with crawl spaces, and a bunch with slabs too. So I, I don't know what the actual ratio is, but it seems like it's about a third, a third, a third. Okay. And actually, my house has crawl space and basement.

So, but yeah, um, houses on slabs perform differently than houses on basements and crawl spaces. And, um, in, in some ways they perform better because you don't have the air leakage as much through the slab as you do through a basement, you know, with the, the... 'Cause you don't have that band joist around the top.

Um, if you got a walkout basement, you don't have windows and doors to deal with at, at the foundation level. Mm. But you can have a lot of heat loss at the perimeter of the slab, and code requires climate... You know, as, as you mentioned, uh, different regions. You know, the, um, building code has climate zones specified.

Lower numbers are hotter climates, higher numbers are, are colder climates. You're probably climate zone five- Five ... or six here. Yeah. Little mix five and six. Yeah. Yeah. And in, in Atlanta, we're climate zone, um, three, and Miami would be climate zone one.

So, uh, yeah, the, the moisture issues, the, you know, the heat issues are, are very different. Here in, um, in this area, in the cold climate in Rochester, you, uh, you know, one thing you have to worry about is diffusion of moisture through materials.

Diffusion is, is not the biggest source of moisture problems with building assemblies. It's actually air leakage carrying moisture with it.

But- In a cold climate, even if you solve the air leakage problems in a wall, for example, you can still get enough moisture diffusing through and finding the cold sheathing to cause problems, so. And that's really one of the things in, uh, Allison's book, is that, you know, we have these graphs and rules of thumbs and, and, uh, you know,

I think it notes in there that, uh, you know, maybe, um, eh, these, uh, DOE, uh, levels suggested levels on moisture, uh, but up in the North, that might not be the case. We might have to get outside that rule of thumb 'cause each home is, is kinda different in those processes or those parts are interacting.

But, um, you know, while, while we're at it, uh, Allison, what's the, uh, you know, how do we contact or how do our listeners contact, uh, you, uh, for the book or for consulting or, uh, just to get your general knowledge in the blog? Yeah. Um, so our website is energyvanguard.com,

E-N-E-R-G-Y V-A-N-G-U-A-R-D.com. And from there you can find the, uh, our store, which, where, where you can buy the book, energyvanguardstore.com, but it's also linked to on the website.

Um, and the blog is where most of the action happens on our website, but our HVAC design pages are where you would go to, um, uh, inquire about hiring us for residential HVAC design. Excellent. Interesting- Oh, and also one, one other place. I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn, so look for me on LinkedIn and either connect with me or follow me there and, uh,

I, I, I post a lot there. Excellent. I just wanted to... I, I'll just toss this out, uh, for both of you gentlemen. I would imagine that the standards, you know, for, uh, for energy, uh, you know, uh, conservation or retention or whatever the term is, uh, is kind of a moving target because technology is always improving, right? I mean, uh, you, you mentioned, uh, we had a little, uh, case history earlier on in the program from Jeff, uh, talking about a house that was built two years ago- Mm-hmm ... and how that needed remedial work, and the, uh, that's, that was, uh, kind of a decision that was made, I guess, by the contractor originally. But I would imagine that a house that you make tight, these days could be made much tighter three or four years from now, uh, for, for additional savings and, and additional comfort. Uh, well, I'd probably throw that to Allison. I mean, there's certainly already contractors that are, are doing a higher level, and there's a balance between, you' know, probably energy and, and comfort and building dura- durability.

Um, so, um, it... I, I don't know, if, would you say it' would be more the, technology that'll change or the equipment that we put in these homes? Well, um, we have the technology now to make super, super airtight houses, and, uh, the, the other thing in the balance equation you just mentioned there, uh, that you didn't mention was cost. Right. Um, we can make things as airtight as we want, but a lot of builders don't wanna spend the extra money to do it, and so they say, "Oh, a house needs to breathe-

Yeah ... 'cause I don't wanna spend the money." Right. Is what they really mean by that. Yeah. But you could do this on kinda like on a cost plus basis though, could you not? I mean, if you had a, if you had a client, a, a homeowner who said, "I, you know, uh, within, you know, reason,

I want this house to be as tight as possible," and so it's gonna be more expensive, but they're willing to go for it. I would imagine you encounter that. Yeah, I think, you know, uh, and I would say there's different classifications, right? There's energy code, which is just, eh, let's build it to this, and hey, we got it, and we don't really know how well it performs. We don't know how durable it is. Um, so we might have hit the energy goals, but we didn't hit the comfort and durability goals. Um, and then there's, uh, passive house or, uh, uh, net zero. That's really over the, uh, over the top, getting after every component. And then in between there's, uh, really, I don't know if it's a, uh, a loose term or a factual term of a pretty good house. So some people have a... And that's a standard in between, uh, the energy code and the, and the passive house. So there, there's these different levels and, and Allison is, uh, 100% correct that, uh, cost is the, is the factor that goes into the equation.

At, at what, you know, what costs do you want to go to, uh, what level? And, uh, it really needs to be one of the first things, uh, that we talk about when we talk about a project. Because if we design a passive house and, and you're on a energy code budget, it's, it's, it's not gonna work. The, uh, the- Well- It's gonna be a fail.

Let, let me say, add a couple other things to that. Um, number one, you can... Yes, it, it costs more to do all this stuff, right? But you can also get some savings from some of the stuff. For example, if you do advanced framing, you're building a, a stick-built house with, with, um, with wood, you can do advanced framing techniques and cut your lumber package cost down. You can, um, build the house, you know, more airtight, better insulated, better windows, and reduce the size of the heating and cooling system that you need in the house. So there are some savings that come too. Mm-hmm. But overall, you're probably gonna spend a little bit more. You know, the net effect is a little bit more. And then you get savings from the, you know, the operational costs are lower and, uh, you know, probably the, uh, the repair costs because the house is more durable.

And then there's the intangible benefit, the same kind of benefit people get from saying, "I want a granite countertop," or, "I want the really nice cabinets." Comfort. Then, you know, the house is more comfortable. The, um, the house has better indoor air quality.

It's a healthy home. So there's a lot of good stuff about it too. Absolutely. Yeah. What would you say, uh, uh, where the industry needs to go? We talked about new build homes. We, I think we need builders to get on board. What do you think the biggest, uh, gap is right now for people to buy in? 'Cause I feel like there's not a ton of people that have bought into making better homes. Yeah, so, um, yeah, so we need more education, and I'm, I'm trying to do my part in that, writing the book and the blog and getting the word out there as much as possible.

And another one of the big hurdles right now is f- people finding good contractors or, you know, consultants to help them do this stuff, and- We, you know, in our, our company, we do third-party HVAC design, and most of the time that works out okay, but sometimes people have trouble finding a contractor, um, who will implement the design properly and, um, you know, 'cause they look at the design and say, "Oh, that'll never work." Yeah. So, so to your point, I, I wanna say, uh, that's right in the beginning of the book, begin with the end in mind, right? So we, we wanna set up, uh, uh, r- people that wanna redo their homes. or people that wanna build new homes, we' wanna f- know what the end goal is. So, um, and that's, you know, that's why, uh, you know, we' look to people like Allison and, uh, you know, other experts in the, in the nation to, to really guide that, um, policy and, and procedure, uh, so that we're doing the right things and as he said before, for the climate zone, right? We're, we're not gonna build, uh, the same thing here as we're gonna build in Miami 'cause we've got some different forces, uh, acting on, on the house.

So, um, what's, uh... let's, let's get the contact information again, uh, in case folks are just joining us, of how they can, uh, reach you. Sure. It's energyvanguard.com is our website and, uh, the blog is, is where, you know, all the articles are, and I write about one new article a week nowadays.

Our HVAC design pages are where you would go, if you wanna hire us for a third-party HVAC design. You can find the link to our book, the, you know, our store where you can buy the book there. It's energyvanguardstore.com, but it's also listed in, the.

blog. Excellent. And then that design is, is absolutely huge. It's, it's something that people... Really, the way it usually works, we'll go into, uh, homes that are t- five, 10 years old and, and there'll be a furnace in the basement, and then there'll be one in the attic, and, and we're like, "How did this happen?" They're like, "The builder got nervous right at the last minute and said, 'I, I think you need...'" I'm like,

"That's a, that's a heck of a game time decision." Yikes. You know? I mean, that's a, that's a, that's, that's one heck of an audible to say, "You know, I think we need another furnace." Oh, my gosh. And, uh, you know, so it's done on a low budget. It's not installed properly, and chances are they didn't need another furnace. It, it, it's, it... You just see mayhem. I mean, you just... One of the last ones I had, he didn't wanna move forward with work, but he had a furnace in the attic, 20-year-old home, and I think he spent $15,000 knocking ice off a couple years ago because it was so jammed up. And, you know, our attitude is, why do you wanna do this every year over and over again?

Why don't you wanna fix it? So. I've never heard of a furnace in the attic. Yeah. That's, that's a new one on me. Yeah. But I, I guess probably between the two of you guys, you've probably, you've covered the waterfront in terms of, you know, uh, case histories where it's- Probably seen a lot ... scr- scratching your head. I'm sure Allison's been called out on, uh, a lot of, uh, hinky stuff out there in the world and seen some, some crazy stuff, so. Hinky, by the way, is a technical term that, uh, you'll find a full definition, uh, in Allison's, uh, uh, book. Oh. He's got... It actually has got a hinky section in it. Oh. I might have to make that up as an acronym. I might have to come up with something like that. It's gotta mean something, right?

All right. Well, uh, Allison, thanks so much for being in the studio and joining us here on the Wise Home, Energy Show. It's, uh, it's very interesting to get your perspective and to, to, to know that, uh, physics can, uh, can be applied, has a, a really practical application in home. building. It's an interesting, uh, we all go down the rabbit hole a different way.

You know, he certainly went down from, uh, a heck of a science background and, uh, you know, it's, uh, it, it's funny. Someday I'll have to tell the story of, of how I got into it. Uh, you know, sometimes it's accidental, sometimes it's on purpose, but, uh, uh, it's, it's fun, the, the, you know, the path once you get down it. And, uh, I got a guy who's kinda working with a little bit. He's tearing down his house because he... Not tore it down, but, um, he, uh, bought the house seven- years ago, immediately did a new roof, and the roof is already rotted out. Oh my gosh. And he started calling people in, and by the time we got there, he'd already done his path. But seven years and he said, "I'm not, I'm not redoing this roof again.

This thing..." And he's got temperature and sensor monitor, temperature and humidity monitors up in the attic- Oh my gosh ... wired down and, um, he's, uh, he's going down the rabbit hole. I, I expect he'll be in the industry soon by the time he's done with his house. He'll be learning it from the inside out. Yeah. Uh, in the remaining moment we have here, let's talk about

Wise Home. Energy. Tell them who you are, where you are, and how to get in touch with you. Sure. Wise Home Energy, uh, we're serving really all of Western New York and, uh, you can contact us on the web at wisehomeenergy.com or, uh, call us at 585-270-5836. One more time with the phone number. 585-270-5836. Allison Bailes, thanks so much for joining us on the program. Oh, well, thank you for having me. I enjoyed it. Yeah. Good luck with the, uh, with the book, and we'll see you next time on the Wise Home Energy Show.