Bad Furnaces, Broken Installs, and the Test That Proves It

This podcast is brought to you by Open Door Mission, Restoring Hope and Changing Lives. opendoormission.com. Well, taking a look at the old clock on, the wall, it's time for another Wise Home Energy Show on. WYSL- Pure energy ... and WLEA.

Here's Jeff Flaherty. Pure energy. Hey, Bob. Great to be back in the hot seat. Well, we make it' as hot as we can this time of year. It's, uh, it's been tough. It's been a little cold, thank goodness. I love the change of weather. As I've always say, it's, uh... If you're gonna live here, you better like the four seasons.

Or is there two? Is it just winter? Uh, yeah, yeah. It's, uh, yeah, winter and construction. Yeah. That's right. Yeah, I guess, uh, I guess we do get clear roads, almost. A little salt and some potholes, uh, things like that this time of year. It's been quite the winter. Uh, way, uh, way over what we did last year- Yeah ... by, by a huge margin, and above the norm. Is it? Okay. Yeah, it's been a little cyclical, right? It, it came early, then a little melt, and now, uh, we're, we're back into it for a little extended period.

And, uh, yeah, it's, um, it's been a challenge for, uh, certain, uh, folks in, in the, in their homes with the comfort and, and, uh, and heating and all the changes that have gone on with, uh, you know, some of the regulations that have taken place with policies and... Oh, sometimes I wish, uh, I guess as we, we find out it's not really a, a free market, right? There's all these forces going on and, uh, uh, they're, they're, they're playing with it. And, and that's one of the things that, uh, we've seen with the new year is there's, there's new rebates so the, um, the, you know, they are focused on, uh, doing heat pumps. Uh, so they've changed, uh, I think locally here. It, it's funny, it happens not statewide, but it happens by utility. Uh, so I think the utilities are, uh, primarily, um, it's $5,000 rebate or $10,000 rebate- Whoa ... based on the size of your home. So they used to, uh, do it based on the size of the equipment, so tho- that's a, that's kind of a big change.

So, and I think, you know, there's, there's still opportunities where people can do a dual fuel system, still get the heat pump, get the rebate, and, uh, uh, still have the comfort and peace of mind if they want gas in their home. So that, that's kind of interesting.

That's, that's been a, a good change. So that's a prerequisite to have the heat pump as part of the deal? Yeah. To, yeah. So there's really no direct incentive for, uh, gas in New York State, which

I, I, you know, it's laws or the powers that be. I don't know who signed it in. But it, it is a law. They cannot incentivize gas, and I'm, I'm not a fan of that. I'm a, I'm a, a fan of, uh, you know, having, uh, diversification, uh, not just in our retirement plans, but in life. We should be able to have the, the choice to put in different things. And, and as we diversify, we're able to, uh, not get caught with our, uh, proverbial energy pants down.

So, uh, you know, one source of fuel, uh, if we put all our eggs in one basket, can, can be a challenge. So, uh, so that's a good rebate and, and I think there'll be some options for people to, uh, still get some nice incentives and still have that, uh, gas, um, in their home for, for heating. So what I'll do is you'll time it. You'll have the heat pump operate down to maybe

30 degrees, and then the gas can come on and, and that's a nice efficient, um, dual fuel option for people. So, uh, so that's this year. They tell us that next year to get that rebate there will be some type of prerequisite that your home is fully insulated.

So to what degree is the home fully insulated? Who's, who chooses that? Um, that'll be the question. We, uh, as we often talk about, we do the blower door test, uh, where some, some contractors choose not to or determine a, a reason not to do that blower door. And, uh, so... And that's all... Really what we're doing is we're deciphering the load of the home.

So I saw an interesting, uh, article. I didn't read it, I just saw the title, and it said that airlines expect to save millions in fuel due to the weight loss drugs that are taking on, uh- I never thought of that. And I thought- Whoa ... that is really interesting.

Oh, yeah. Um, that is the load. So in an airplane there is a load. I always wondered how they calculate it, right? You're, you're weighing the bag, so they know that, but there must be a formula. There is. Uh, it's, it's called weight and balance.

Okay. Uh, and, uh, every aircraft, whether you're, you know, flying a Piper Cub or whether you're, you know, you're doing an Airbus, uh, weight and balance comes into play. And the aircraft, of course, are designed around a typical human being.

I don't know what it is now, but the standard used to be an adult human being was calculated as 170 pounds. Okay. Now, we all know that that, you know, that calculus is out the window.

Yeah. I mean, for me, that was, you know, uh, 20, 30 years ago, I think. Maybe, maybe 40. I'm not sure. High school. Yeah, 40, maybe 50. Whatever.

But, uh, but yeah, you know, so you have to, they have to calculate everything. Yeah. The weight of the aircraft, the fuel- Yeah ... uh, the cargo, the passengers, the, the whole shebang. Yeah. Absolutely, and I, I just thought of that. I'm like, that's an interesting analogy. You know, the same thing for a home. We have to do that load calculation, and we always say that blower door is such a critical, uh, piece of information.

In fact, uh, you know, sometimes I get a- accused of, uh, uh, sh- shorting people or, or sizing things small because I'll do presentations and people, people have yelled at me saying I'm gonna kill grandma 'cause I aggressively size equipment. And so that's mostly furnaces, but air source heat pumps are really interesting because-

We call them, um, three ton, uh, which is, yeah, 36,000 BTUs, and it, it's kind of a legacy terminology leftover from traditional air conditioning. But really, as the temperature drops, we have to find out what that really that output is at five degrees. And, uh, we had a home last year where the client, uh, uh, we had done it about three years ago, and she-- they kept calling and saying, "It's not... There's something wrong with the system." And we went out there and, and the system was operating fine, but the temperature was dropping, and it was a tough farmhouse and, and we had installed it kind of around COVID, where they had kind of forbid us to do blower doors.

And, um, we finally decided to, uh... We had done some insulation and we-- and I said, "Well, we need a blower door on this thing. This is an old leaky farmhouse. Uh, we're gonna come do the blower door," and we just chased some air and we took it down, um,

I think about 20%. Chasing air, even though we had already insulated, the blower door is, is the truth teller and tells us, and that solved the problem. That, that took care of, uh, sh- she had old leaky windows in the basement, and it was kind of a nasty basement. She said, "Foam right over them," and, and so it wasn't, it wasn't a heat pump problem. And because we didn't do that blower door, we had to sorta just take an estimated guess. So it's- So chasing air. You lost me on that one.

Yeah. What's, what's that mean? Um, so we do, uh, we do diagnostic smoke, um, it, to help chase the air or an infrared camera. Uh, there's a euphemism, um, a, a joke in the trade of, uh, you're looking for cracks.

So, um, the smoke will transfer for the crack, so, you know, you're smoking crack in the home is, is a joke- Walk away ...that runs in the, in the trade. But, um, but you can, you can see it. You get the blower door going. So the blower door sits in the, the typically the front door and all the windows and doors are closed. The house is in what we call wintertime condition, and we can use the infrared camera to see the leakage, so the cold spots will come through and show up as fingers. Uh, or we can turn the fan around and pressurize the home, and we use the diagnostic smoke to see where it travels. So, um, the areas we had insulated were good, but there was just some things that were just, uh, ticky-tacky, but the ticky-tacky just added up.

Uh, and that's why we try to do that blower door every single time. But COVID had, had been that funny thing where everybody said, "We can't even turn this thing on for..." I forgot how long, uh, the powers that be said, "Don't turn it on." Wow. And then we were telling people, "Well, you can leave the home. Why don't you leave the home while we do it?"

And yeah, all that stuff. So the, uh, do you think that the state's gonna mandate the blower door for, uh, these, uh, incentives going forward?

So they like to, um, but there are, there are legitimate reasons not to do a blower door test. And so those are typically, um, asbestos-like products that we put in the home years ago. So we, we-- this term, we get really afraid of asbestos.

Some asbestos is nine-inch tiles that we see in basements. That stuff has been bonded. That is, that is bonded in there. No wind is gonna pick that up. If you're walking on it, it's not gonna pick it up. Uh, but up in the attic sometimes there's a, a product called vermiculite that has... They still make it today, but what they were using in, um, uh, insulation years ago came out of a mine in Libby, Montana, and that can be contaminated.

Mm-hmm. So that's why we inspect the attic first and we, uh, we'll not do a blower door if we find that, and we point people in the right direction of how to do it. And, and boiler pipes with the crusty type stuff on them, um, they'll-- that, that's probably a good reason not to do it. And that can be encapsulated, uh, but people aren't doing it because there's some, uh, white tape on ductwork. So, uh, I've been practicing a little bit. I'm, I'm probably in the next month be able to, uh, release a video that is gonna show that your blower motor on your fan is putting 10 to 20 times more pressure and air on those seams than a blower door is ever gonna do. Yeah. But what's happened is, um, people are like, people are like water and air. They're lazy.

Water and air are lazy. They take the path of least resistance and so does, uh, uh, people. And they choose not to bring this blower door in because it is the heaviest part of, uh, the energy audit. Probably weighs about 35 pounds. Uh, takes a little bit to set up. And, um, then the other thing is they're not held accountable. So if you don't, if you don't have a starting point and then you insulate someone's home and you didn't get any reduction on your blower door number, you s- you start to question yourself why and, and what did you pre-- uh, promise them. But if you didn't do the blower door, you just insulate and go, "Hey, we improved it. You're in great shape." And, and that home we did that we had to go back to is a perfect example. We're, we're-- we've got a lot of skilled people. Uh, we had kinda line item, um, s-specified what we should insulate, but because we didn't have that concrete blower door number, we just didn't really know what it was.

And so they'd like to, uh, you know, the powers that be would like to, um, uh, mandate it. I just think there's people that, um, will, will skirt the law as, as, you know, every industry has some bad actors. Yeah.

Yep. And, and some people... There's another reason that you can say heavy, heavy mold. If you have lots of mold showing, people say you shouldn't do it The mold turns into mold spores and they jump off anyway, so it's already going around the home. But where my fault of the process of skipping in on a mold is, people will not do it 'cause of mold, but then they'll, they'll go and do work in the home. So my thought is, if you think the mold is such a bad problem, shouldn't you recommend remediation and correcting that before you start- Right ... insulating and air sealing? So those are kind of the, uh, uh, the unscrupulous tactics that I've seen out there and, um, we'll go to homes. When people call, it's always, it's always a mystery when people say, "Well, I had work done and I'm uncomfortable."

And then we come out, we look at it, and we do the blower door test and, um, usually find that, you know, something went wrong because we, we can test and, um, it's sort of the difference between telemedicine and, and really going out there and getting an MRI and a blood test and actual concrete data.

So, uh, we'll see where that goes. We're, uh, you know, we have our, our process that we're gonna stick with and, um, we, we, we certainly don't wanna put our employees or the customers in harm's way at all. We always wanna act in the, the safest possible, uh, way we can. But w- what I've discovered is it's, it's, it's more of a, a gimmick that this fan could not, uh, be dislodging things like they, they, they portray. So we'll see where that goes. Um, you know, I'd like to see these grants and rebates used, uh, you know, in a, a responsible manner, and we know that that blower door test, uh, works.

So, uh, you know, I had a client recently called up and said, "I had... I'm moving and I wanna s- I wanna install a new furnace. I think it's really old and I just think the house will sell better." And, and, uh, so our rep went out there and, um, uh, they had said they had another quote or two and, and, uh, we, we looked at, um, the hot water tank was 12, 13 years old, which that, that's pretty old for a hot water tank.

Um, and then the furnace was, it was only about 10, 11 years old, which for a furnace that, that can have a lot of life left. And, and really we said, "You know, uh, maybe the best bet is to replace the hot water tank and hold off and let the buyer decide what they want." And, and she still wanted to move forward with a quote. We gave her the quote and, um, and she showed us the other quote from, uh, private equity, which there is a lot of big private equity trucks rolling around. And this quote for this furnace was like $2,500 more than our quote and, and it's just, that's the nature of the beast out there. Now, that's, you can do a apples for apples cost, but then we looked at the equipment and it was single stage and not the right size. So that means it's gonna put out the same amount of heat at five degrees as it does at 45 degrees, which it's not... That doesn't, that-- Even though it lo- the box says it's efficient, that doesn't mean that the system is gonna operate efficiently. It's just gonna run more, right? Yeah.

It, well, it'll, it'll sort of run less really, um, because it's on and off too much and, uh- Oh, I see. Yeah ... and so then it c- it doesn't warm up the surfaces in the home. So even though that, that efficiency label on that furnace, um, the single stage in my opinion is, is just something that should not be installed because it's, you just never need the same amount of heat at five degrees that you do at 40 degrees.

Ever. Yeah. Should never, a single stage should never be installed. It really should never be installed, and we don't do it. We, we will not do it, uh, unless there's a, a, a begging and pleading because it's, it's not that much of a, a cost jump to go to the two stage.

So those are the kind of things we're, we're seeing out there and, and no one knows that these companies are, um, you know, private equity. I get the letters, uh, to, to, to buy us all the time and I think I'm having too much fun fixing your work. So why would I, why would I wanna join, uh, uh, you know, some bad processes when I can, uh, just sit around and...

But sadly, I don't wanna fix their work because usually that's a lot of wasted money ba- on a client that is already spent. So, um, you know, the other thing that is probably worthy to talk about this time of year is, is ice. We've had some snow. Certain areas with lake effect are gonna have a lot more snow and, and, uh, that ice dam is, uh, this is the time of year and, you know, occasionally we'll get people call and say, "You did work at our house last year or two years ago, and we're getting icicles." And so icicles can form, uh, just through nature. And a good test, uh, if it's just nature, is to look at an unheated building. Like, if you have a detached garage or a shed that has icicles hanging off it, that shows you that the Mother Nature is, is making some icicles. Uh, because there's gonna be a little heat from the sun and it'll get this right temperature and it'll still freeze at the, at the edge. But when we have heat loss and it's creating ice dams, that's something that can be taken care of, dramatically improved. And when you do that, you're improving your comfort and you're impil- pr- improving the building durability of the home. And then hopefully, even though the rates keep going up, you're, you're saving on your energy usage.

So, uh, so that, that's something that, uh, you know, I'm sure we're gonna see this time of year. Um, it, it's just a, a part of heat loss. And so the heat loss, we, we just think insulation is what's gonna stop the heat loss, but not all insulation air seal. So that's where we do the blower door test and, and scientifically can prove that we're dramatically improving this space and, and then we have the ventilation that adds to it. Uh, so if people are getting any of that ice dams, um, the best thing you can do short-term is if you can safely

Remove some of the snow from the first four feet of the edge of the roof, uh, with a roof rake. Uh, it's tough work. I did it as a kid. Uh, it's, uh, it works the back muscles great. You wanna try to, uh, pretend you're a lacrosse player and make sure you switch, uh, right and left to, uh, you know, equal... get equal work on both sides of the body. Uh, but that's the kind of the short term is get that snow off the lower part of the roof.

That'll allow any melt to, to get off the roof a little quicker. Uh, but it's tough to fix it when it's happening. So that water that's backing up can get right into the home. You may not see it in the living space. It may be in the attic. Uh, but it tells you that y- it's, uh, something that you, you may wanna look at.

Uh, so New York has these no-cost energy audits. Uh, you just give us a call. You, you take a little, uh, a little paperwork and provide a little utility bill and a little bit of your goals, and we come out and do that assessment and, and tell you how much we can improve of that. You know, the structure, uh, kinda dictates, you know, how much, uh, susceptible the home is to ice. Uh, but that, uh, that, uh, the energy rebates and, and energy audits in New York State are probably second to none across the nation. So, um, you know, give us a call, 585-270-5836, or, uh, visit us on the web at wisehomeenergy.com and, and we can walk you through that process.

Uh, I think we've seen over the last few years that the rates have gone up, right? The h- the house, the property values have gone up very fast, but everything else has gone up very fast, and utility rates are, are right there. I mean- Especially now. Wow.

We are getting the calls and the shock of, "Wow, I can't believe this." And we usually have to start with, "Send the bill over. We need to see the usage." It's kind of the difference between, you know, shopping at, uh, you know, one gas station that's a dollar cheaper than the next gas station, and that's hard to do. You can't really do that with utilities. But that's what we're seeing is your car is still using the same amount of miles per gallon. It's just the cost per gallon of fuel has gone up, and so that's, that's giving people pause.

So the people that made these, um, improvements years ago are experiencing that long-term savings, and it, and it really went up from there. So, um, you know, we had a gentleman recently call up. He had... He bought a home, and it had geothermal in it. And he said, "Boy, this, the rates on this, I, I'm paying a ton.

And, you know, we've gone through and we've changed all the windows and we've weather-stripped the doors. I think I've done everything we could do, uh, to really improve this home."

And our rep went out and, um, he... You know, sometimes people get it in their head of what the problem is and what the fix is and, um, it was interesting. At the same time, he had a geothermal company come out that didn't install it, and they really started talking about the load. And I guess the home was kind of, um, maybe the, the geothermal installer owned the home, different company, and it was like a trial. I don't know if it was a, a scratch-and-dent sale. But he ended up walking out of the house, uh, determining that the system was 50,000 BTUs, but the heat load for the home was 60,000, 66,000 BTUs.

So already we have a gap. We have a, a deficiency there, and that goes into backup electric resistance, which becomes, uh, very expensive.

So we did our blower door, and it was a, it was kind of a robust home. It was, uh, a large home and, uh, had ice dams. It had the telltale signs. And my rep said, "I don't even know if he'll..." You know, he just had it in his head that weather stripping and windows and, and, uh, he said the infrared scans, the stuff was... You could see the cold areas, the under-insulated, the air leakage coming through the home.

And, um, you know, it's, that's the beauty is we can walk out, uh, maybe we didn't convince the client what the fix is, and maybe he's gonna get some more weather stripping. But at least we walk out knowing if he calls three years later,

"Hey, we, we know exactly what the fix is. Your blower door is, is 4,500 and, and..." Or at this, this one was 6,200. Now, it was a good size home, um, so maybe we'll, we'll get that down 1,000 or 2,000 doll- uh, CFM if he does it. Uh, but we know that's, that's just your house is a chimney, and the air is gonna come in low, and it's gonna leave high in the wintertime. That's just the way, uh, it works with pressures and stack effects, and we hear our meteorologists talk about it on the, on the weather report. Uh-huh. "Hey, we got high pressures and low pressures."

And, and if you think about it, those, uh, you know, when those winds come in, those are always like a high pressure or low pressure coming in, changing things and- Think of that going through your home basically. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And so, um- So if not, if it's not with the weather stripping and insulation products and the w- what, uh, potentially would the fixes be? It, it's more along the lines of chasing, chasing leaks. So- Gotcha ... we know it at the top. This one I think was a Cape Cod style home, but a large, a large home. It almost looked like a ranch from the, the, um, street view.

And, um, just, you know, people look in and see the wonderful pink fiberglass and, and think that is, is, is the end all be all, and I'm good. Well, if it doesn't test well, uh, with that blower door, then the air leaks right past the insulation and doesn't work. So it's similar to wearing that, uh, you know, knitted sweater outside where it feels warm inside, but you step outside and the wind goes right through that knitted sweater. Through that, yeah, through that weave. Yeah. So you gotta get that windbreaker to stop that wind, and that's where the two come together. The insulation and the air leakage have to work together. Some products do both at the same time, uh, like, like spray foam. Not all surfaces can take spray foam. Some people, um, are against spray foam. So spray foam isn't

You know, for everybody. We have different products that, um, you really can usually work for most, uh, applications and, and most people's, um, you know, environmental concerns or, or worries and, and budgets. So it's there. So that's what we like to do.

Um, so on the, on the other note, I, I think some of the challenges is with all these changes and the, and the no, um, incentives for gas folks, really the low to moderate income people. We talk of affordability, and the policy holders say they're really out for the low and moderate income folks that are being hurt. But these policies sometimes are, are hurting them. Um, the electric, uh, uh, code just changed first of the year and, you know, sometimes we... I guess they say if you save one person, but, um, there's a new code, uh, that, uh, electric panel upgrades are gonna have to have a disconnect outside the home. And so I, I... my understanding is this for, for firefighters to have a quicker- Yeah ... way to disconnect the home. Yep.

So, you know, in 30, 40 years after we do all these homes, things will be safe. Uh, but in the meantime, one at a time, the cost has been added. Um, so a lot of times they get a heat pump. In these older homes, the panel isn't big enough, so now that's driving the cost up. Not only do we have a panel, now we have a more expensive panel. Uh, and it's altered some...

It, it can even alter some of the electric requirements in the home, 'cause now with the disconnect, your panel inside the home now becomes a sub-panel, and there, there's some debate on what's grandfathered in and what's not. So it, it's a little frustrating when you hear the, the folks get on TV and, "Hey, we're here' to, we're here to help the poor, and we're here to help the, you know, disadvantaged," but boy, the policies don't seem to fall in line with that stuff. Uh- I'm from the government and I'm here to help. That's right. That's right. So there's incentives, but the cost keeps getting, uh, driven up, so that's, that's too bad. So, um, but, uh, you know, we're out there. We cover a, a great swath of, uh, Western New York. Uh, give us a call,

585-270-5836. Check out our website at wisehomeenergy.com. There's lots of information. And, you know, even if you're not in our service terria- territory, we're, we're happy to have a phone call with you, look at some pictures, and see if we can point you in the right direction. We... Our aim is to be, uh, an education resource, just like we do on this, uh, show, so that people, uh, have the right information to make the best decision for them, because nobody likes to waste money. Uh, and once again, you've paid for these audits. Absolutely. Yeah, these fees, there's numerous ones. Whoever could read a utility bill, I'd love to get a utility, uh, rep in here to help teach us how to read these things. So yeah, you've paid for it.

It would be a good thing to do maybe. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, you've been listening to the Wise Home Energy. Show, a, uh, a paid advertisement, uh, and a podcast from Wise Home Energy. 585, and the number again, Jeff? 270-5836.

And thanks so much for stopping by. Always a pleasure. And we'll see you next time on the Wise Home Energy Show, WYSL, WLEA.