Heat Production, Distribution, Retention, and Why Size Matters

Well, look at the time. Looks like it's time. for another Wise Home Energy Show on the WYSL stations.

Pure energy. The voice of liberty and the impresario of Wise Home Energy in the studio as always, as he is monthly, Jeff Flaherty. Hey,

Bob. Uh, so excited to be back here. I, you know, the... This is my favorite time of year, but this is my favorite time of the month when I get to sit across from the legend and, uh, discuss thermodynamics. Oh, what a nice thing to say. It's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing. If you turn up your radio loud enough, you can hear me blushing. So, uh, you know, I wanted to tell you, Christmas, uh, I got some gifts and, uh, you know, I got a sweater and

I loved it. And I also got a scarf. And boy, that scarf, as I put that around my neck, it' reminded me of air sealing because that really- Of course it would ... stops the air from getting in your neck and down through the body and chilling you down.

And, and I realized, boy, that is... Life is a lot like that with thermodynamics, where we're looking at how, uh, how we lose heat and gain heat.

And, uh, that scarf has, uh, uh, been a trusted friend recently. And, and that's the same thing with, uh, what we talk about in homes. The top of the home is, is so important and, and air sealing that. And, and people...

It's hard to fathom for people to, to understand that. And I think this time of year they feel it. You know, a lot of times throughout the year, the house is, uh, dynamic and, and it's moving around, and temperatures and comfort and humidity and...

Uh, but this time of year, if your home is, uh, uh, not performing well, you feel it. You feel it. And we're getting a lot of those calls where, you know, pre- probably the people knew it or they're new to the home, and they're making those calls and, and we start with that diagnostic. It is-- it's, it's somewhat frustrating 'cause people want us to, to run out and fix what they think is the problem, and we, we know we have to start with a diagnostic. You don't run to your doctor and, and say, "You know, I'd like a knee replacement surgery." Uh, the doctor would be committing, uh, malpractice if they went and did that. They're gonna start with a investigation and find out what is going on. What's, uh... You have pain in your knee, that's the symptom, but let's get to the root cause.

And so that's the Wise Home Energy philosophy. We start with the, the diagnostic and, and figure out what your goals are. And- You got it. Uh, Wise Home Energy, malpractice-free. That's right. Exactly. No, no, uh, you won't get any knee replacements, uh, that you don't need. That's right. And, and I wanna talk about some of the, uh, the folks that, that call in and, um, you know, there is some malpractice out there. We-- I had a call recently where, uh, a client called in and haven't been to the home yet, but she said, "You know, we moved here from another state, and we had this house that had a, a wood burner, and so we got talked into these electric heaters." And, uh, finally I got the description, and so they're, they're ductless heat pumps. And, uh, we got talked into them and, um, they're not... The bills are extraordinarily high and, and- They have, they have more than one? They, uh... Yeah. So they put, um, I think she said three.

Uh, it was kind of a unique setup. The house hadn't really been lived in for some time. They had bought it and, uh, so no one really knew how the, how the home would work. She said there was a furnace there, but no one had ever really connected it.

And so when I talked to her, I said, "Well, when you got these heat pumps, did you get the utility rebate?" She said, "No. No, I didn't, I didn't get that." I'm thinking, "How, how does..." You know, and so I said, "Would you mind telling me who the company was?" And she explained, and I said, "Yeah, that's a big, big private equity firm that we're seeing, uh, coming down the state." And, uh, to me, that's, that's really unethical, um, to sell, uh, somebody these heat pumps that you should be eligible for this rebate. You are gonna have to do some extra work. But really, she probably missed out on $3,000 rebate.

And then- Ouch ... talking to her in more deeply about her income, she was income eligible. And really, I, I don't wanna rub salt in the wound, but really maybe we could have really done something extraordinary there. Now what we're gonna do is go out to the home and see if we can insulate the home and make the equipment work properly.

Um, but it's, it's really quite sad. It's fine if no one wants to play in the programs. It, it takes a lot of paperwork, a lot of, uh, a lot of effort to stay up to speed on the rules.

Uh, but to be able to properly fix a home, uh, is, and, and to do it responsibly for the home and for the client's budget, uh, we can do that. So if you don't, if you don't play in that... Now, I respect more of the ones where somebody called me recently and said, "I, I, I need this, uh, room. It's cold." And he said he had a, um, a HVAC, uh, company out and they said, "Well, you don't want a heat pump here. It's so small. This is an insulation problem." And I, I said, "Kudos to that heating contractor for not selling you a piece of equipment that was not gonna work, uh, was only gonna make him money." So I, I respected that. And th- those are the type of, um- Those are the type of people you want in your home that are gonna be able to walk away and say, "We're-- we don't have the solution for you. You should call someone who does." And so, uh- So they didn't tr- they didn't offer to try to insulate it or any of that. They just- Well, that, yeah, that company I think just did heating, so yeah. Yeah. I don't know who it was, but- Handed the football. Yeah.

But it's, um, it's interesting. I, uh... Another call we just, uh, had was, uh, a gentleman, uh, or a, a female. I, I shouldn't say. It was through an email, so I don't really know. And, uh, uh, they emailed and, and, uh, said that they have cold drafts coming through their, their outlets, and they'd like to have somebody come and assess it. And so then I looked up the address and it was, it was a small little house. It's

6,000 square feet. Um, so I didn't know if there was an airplane in there. But it, it's a big mansion and it's only, you know, within the last 20 years it's been built.

So I really had to respond and say, "Look it, the state offers a no-cost assessment. This is not gonna fix your problem. We need to charge to come out to the home. Because it's such a large home, we're gonna need two people.

We're gonna need two blower doors. Uh, it, it just, just even measuring the house and, and, and investigating it, I'm certain it's gonna have two or more heating systems. It's, it's... This is more than just put a little gasket on your outlet.

Um, the wall... The house has been probably built to code, right? It was... It's a mansion. It's... The price fit the square footage." That's a lot to heat. Yeah. And, uh, he came back and said, "No, I found another company that'll do the, the no-cost one."

I'm like, "Oh, okay. I don't think there'll be a lot of diagnostics there." "And if it's a heating company, they're probably gonna try to sell you a heating upgrade. And if it's an insulation company, they probably will offer you an insulation upgrade. Um, we were gonna offer you diagnostics." Um, so it's, it's hard to, it's hard to fathom really when you think of, um, heat loss and comfort. You, you have the heat production, so in, in many homes that's a furnace. That's the production. A lot of times that's in the basement. You have the distribution, so the ductwork is gonna get it out there. Uh, we don't know, uh, how well that ductwork is gonna get it out there. Uh, all those turns add up to equivalent length we call it. So you can have a few turns and a few boots, and you can have 100 foot of equivalent length trying to get that heat to that one room. And the real end result is how much is it throwing out in a cubic foot per minute out of that supply register? What's the temperature? What's the velocity? And where that's dumping it sh- typically there's only one thermostat, uh, per furnace, so it's the one room is gonna tell the furnace the rest of the house is fine. So, and then the third part of the component is the retention of the heat. So we have the production, the distribution, and then the retention of the heat. And in the wintertime, or in the summertime, it's then, uh, um, uh, retention of the cool air. So, uh, those three components, uh, take a little time and, and each home is different to be able to, to diagnose that home. But, uh, all depends on what your, what your budget are and, and what your goals are. But the, uh, the... But the mansion is not teed up for an energy assessment from Wise Home Energy right now, so. Okay.

So. Well, who knows? I mean, uh, they may come back to you. They may come back. They may come back. But, uh, yeah, to, to go devote eight hours of, uh, uh, people walking around the home, uh, is just not enough, uh, for the state, uh, no-cost assessment.

So each one, you know, even though we offer that, I can do it remotely. You can give me the energy bills and I can kinda look at your energy usage and do an, a remote energy audit with a few pictures. I can do that, but- Hey, real quick before we go any further. Uh, w- let's, uh, let's tell everybody who you are, what Wise Home Energy is, contact information. What, uh, what you're all about. You know, kinda like Wise Home Energy 101. Absolutely. So Wise Home Energy, uh, is we're celebrating our 15th, uh, year in business.

Uh- Congratulations. Thank you. We are, uh, a diagnostic, uh, and, and install firm. So we really design, uh, the solutions and then we install the solutions. And, uh, we are looking at... So energy is one component. The state offers no-cost energy assessments that Wise is a partic- participating contractor in the program. Um, so we come out and do an assessment, but we wanna look at, uh, really what you wanna fix in the home as far as comfort, durability, uh, health and safety, indoor air quality. We wanna look at all these things and, and there's really 100 tests we can do. We can come into a home and do a visual inspection, and then, uh, typically with New York State, as we often say, we'll do a no-cost, uh, blower door test. Typically if, if the situation and the house is reasonable size. A 6,000 square foot house is, is not a reasonable sized, uh, home to do a, a no-cost blower door test.

Uh, and then we, we, uh, provide a report showing all the things that we would recommend upgrading, matching it up with your goals, and then we match it up with state, uh, grant rebates and incentives. So, uh, for everybody, there's rebates for, uh, certain items depending on the condition, uh, and age and efficiency of the, the home. And then for some people, uh, maybe that, uh, are mid or lower income, they have some additional rebates. So there's something for everybody.

Uh, but the key is that, that diagnosis. So, uh, you can visit us on the web at wisehomeenergy.com, or, uh, you can call or text us at 585-270-5836 and we can have a 15-minute conversation to talk about your goals and, and what, um, our process is and see if it's a fit for you. Definitely a worthwhile thing to do. It's a no-pressure situation. And these rebates, uh, it should be noted, uh, come through a New York State agency, if you've never heard of it, called NYSERDA, right? That's right. And this, this is a program that you have already paid for. That's right. It's on your utility bill.

And, uh, it, we access, uh, that state one, and then sometimes each individual, uh, utility will have a rebate. So you typically can't use both. They call that double-dipping 'cause it's the same pot of money. So we try to look at it and figure out what the best path is for you. Uh, and that's, that's really the, um, we're the guide along the way and it depends on what you, what you wanna do. And, um, we had, uh, another lady we, uh, I think I talked about this, uh, a year or so ago.

She called and had another one of these private equity firms out and they, um- Insulated the attic and, and so my rep, uh, went up there and pulled back and saw that the top plate was not air sealed, and he came down and told her it wasn't air sealed. And she called the company, and they gave her some, uh, hooey of that they're not supposed to air seal attics, and they don't... When there's insulation, you don't wanna tighten up the home too much, which is completely-

Oh, geez ... ridiculous. If I had him here in person, I would, you know, certainly call him to task on that. This is a, a, a standing joke here on the program- Yeah ... folks, if you haven't heard. Uh, you know, y- the refrain, the standard refrain is, you don't want your home to be too tight. That's right. That's right. It's, yeah, it's interestingly...

And so we... She had some issues. It was probably, I'm trying to think, it was about a 20, 30-year-old home and, and there were some eyebrow roofs, these little, like, bump out windows. You'll see them back on bump out, uh, uh, sliding glass doors. You'll have this little area. And so she had some cold there and, and there was a skylight up in the attic. And so skylights, the fiberglass is on the three sides of the wall or four sides of the wall, and it falls off and it... So we recommend foaming that. So she didn't wanna, she didn't wanna air seal her attic. The other company told her they wouldn't come back and air seal the attic.

Um, so she called the other day and was complaining, and I, I said, "Well, I'll run over to the home. It's close to our office." And, um, you know, she said, "Yeah, no, I'm getting ice," and, and it's... And I didn't have all the data in front of me. I sorta knew this was the house and, and it's like... And then the company that did the kinda whiscammer rooster, I'll call it, uh-

... was, was in there doing more work, uh, on a different item. And I was thinking, "I... We told her." She knows that they did not do what they said. They did not honor their contract, and she's back with them, and then she's looking at me saying, "Why do I have ice? None of my other neighbors have ice." And it's, it's like, "Well, the people in your basement, you should go ask them." "They're the, they're the ones who didn't do the work. We just told you we were gonna foam the skylight.

We, we..." And we'll have to go back and look at the emails, but, but it really is interesting that you, um, y- you know, we, we... I always, say we'd never wanna do half an attic. And, and it's, it is tough for people to understand because how, how can I own that space if I only do half of it? Imagine, imagine you're getting a cut on your arm, and you've got 20 stitches you need, and the. doctor's like, "I just... You know, the budget, your, the health insurance, we're only giving you 10. Which, which, which side of the, the gash do you want stitched up?" And, and, you can go along your way, and you'll be running around saying, you know, "I'm still bleeding. What's wrong with that doctor?" Yeah, but think of, think of the savings. That's right. Absolutely.

Um, so, it, it... Those, um, those stories are, you know, they're frustrating, um, because it's, it's something we wanna fix, and, so it's, it's tough when those half... When people just wanna do half the job. We, we can, we usually walk away, or we can do sign-offs and say,

"We don't think this is gonna work, but at least you have it. half done." But normally we just, we just walk away. Um, had another one where, uh, this, uh, client called in, well, it was from like a year ago. She has a, a block home, and it's, uh, which is, uh, it's a tough home.

And, and then to add challenges beyond that is it's knotty pine, and knotty pine or tongue and groove, it looks great. I love that stuff. It's great for cabins and cottages. It, it's not great f- it's not an air barrier. And, um, was out there and, and did a blower door test and, and it's just, it's... You walk around, and you can feel the air leaking.

Yikes. And so I can get into the knee walls. It's kind of a Cape Cod, so I can, I can foam that, and I, I sorta have a plan where I can kinda do 80% of it. She doesn't wanna rip the wood down. Um, and I don't know if I- I'm,

I would wanna do the 80%. I can get it, but already, you know, I s- I look at the furnace, and I say, "Your furnace is oversized." And she says, "It's only two years old." And, and I walk out of that home, and I think to myself, "I don't wanna be the bearer of bad news anymore." I mean, they're, you know, they're shooting-

... the messenger. I'm the person who's saying it's already oversized, so when I properly tighten down that attic, that's gonna even make it more oversized. So it, it's, um, it's, it's interesting in that regard, uh, that you have to decide, uh, that you want that trusted advice. And, and, uh, you know, some people walk away from us. Some people just do the insulation, uh, and, and go and, and get a furnace afterwards, and unbeknownst to us, they don't call us, and then they get an oversized furnace. And, um, there's a calculation, a Manual J load calculation for the house. We also, we also look at the actual e- energy usage, and we can kinda look at, you know, how much you're using. If you, if you buy that car off the lot that says it's 35 miles per gallon, that doesn't mean you're gonna get 10 gallons and drive 350 miles. You have to go drive the, the miles, fill the tank, and do the math and figure out what you really- got. You know? Is. it, uh, is it 30 miles per gallon? I think some years ago we' had an automaker that couldn't make their, their MPG mandatory, so they had some little devices on the car that would help fudge the results. So- Oh, nice. Yeah ... um, so that's, um, th- that's some of the challenges is we're, we're looking at, uh, how, those components come together.

Why don't you tell them why, why an oversized furnace? You know, I mean, if, if you're thinking, uh, you're cold i- in the home, you're not comfortable, uh, so I'll just... You know, we'll get some more heat going here. Yeah, absolutely. And, and that's what, you know, a s- a simple Band-Aid type solution w- might appeal to people. Tell them why that doesn't work. It really is. So, um, we, we have duct work usually that, uh, is, matched up to, uh, the system, and, so it' has to be the right size for the system. But as it, as it. turns on, if you go buy an $80,000 furnace, and, it' has 72,000 BTUs of, of output-

It's, it, it only has one stage, so on a l- on a f- mild 50-degree day, it's gonna turn on, hit the thermostat, tell it, "I'm warm enough," and it won't, uh, hit the other areas, and it won't warm up the surfaces of the home, so the walls. One of the, I think of the five, um, characteristics or features of home comfort or comfort, uh, for a human being is called the mean radiant temperature.

And so it's the mean radiant temperature of your exterior surfaces. So we go into homes with the infrared cameras, and we look at that, and if that wall is cold, you will be cold. Doesn't matter what the air temperature is because the wall is gonna pull the heat off you. So if you, if you've ever been to a campfire and it's too hot and you step behind, uh, a willing friend or a tree, the minute you're out of that radiant heat, the heat is gone. Mm-hmm. Uh, so you're not feeling the heat of the combustion. You're feeling the radiant heat of the flame.

And, uh, kind of the same thing in a home. It's pulling that heat off you. So a, a properly sized or modulating furnace giving the proper heat to the proper load. So the load is how much your home needs at that particular time. So on a 50, 60-degree day, it doesn't need a lot, and if you're throwing this four times the load at it, it's just an up-and-down experience, and your furnace is on and off. And as the furnace starts up, it's not in its most efficient stage. And as it shuts down, it's not in its most efficient stage. So it, it's rarely running at its peak efficiency, so you're, you're having losses. It's, it's on and off, uh, too often, and it, you just... It p- it bugs people, the noise, on and off, on and off, and, uh, but it's more of those temperatures, uh- The temp- temperatures swing, right? Right. Right. It's up and down and up and down. And, and there's sometimes there's balancing on ducts. There's dampers, but sometimes there's not. Sometimes there's drywall, basement ceilings. And duct balancing is, is, uh, a whole other science, and it, and it's not a service that's really included with a, with an energy audit. That takes some, uh, uh, some measurement and testing throughout the, uh, home. And really go into a home and a lot of these registers, people don't even know where their registers are. So we, you know, we kind of have them map it out for us 'cause if they're behind couches and under beds, there's, there's not too much we can do about it. So sometimes that's the way the, what the house gives you for what, what you wanna use the room for. But, but that's it. We wanna look at all those things and, and it's...

You know, w- I don't wanna say that, that you have to change everything, but we, we can't just say it's one thing. And sometimes we alter a system, and we have to monitor how it works. Similar to, you know, if you go to a doctor, you get a, a test and, uh, your blood pressure's high. They give you a med and they say... They don't say, "Go home and never come back."

They say, "Well, let's come back and retest your blood pressure," 'cause that med for 80% of the people will work, but for 20% it may not work. We, we might have to try something different. We might have to alter your diet.

We might have to have you exercise more or things like that. So, um, there's the diagnosis, there's the implementation of the, uh, improvement, and then there's the testing afterwards to find out what, what's really going on so.

So the kind of work that you do at Wise Home Energy is, uh, is unusual in that this isn't the kind of service you get from the typical HVAC organization. Right. Exactly. Yeah. It's, um- Much more systemic approach. Yeah. And, uh, they say, uh, you know, to, if, to someone with a hammer, everything looks like a nail, right? Right. So if, if it's an HVAC company, they're probably gonna recommend an HVAC, uh, upgrade for you. And, um, and we wanna look at the whole thing.

So we were, we were at a home the other day and, and they wanted an assessment. Uh, well, we, we offered them the assessment 'cause they had, uh, an attic problem with insulation, um, uh, destroyed and squirrels. And, and I got to the home and it was, uh, had a lot of different levels. It was an unusual home that I'd... a, a type of home that I'd never been in. It was kind of a colonial with a Cape Cod and then another room. So it was, um, and, and so we looked at it and did the blower door and it was through the roof and, and they were expecting a child, uh, uh, in the next six months and they really wanna fix this. And so we're really just kind of, uh, looking at the furnace, looking at the hot water tank, the efficiency, but it's not their core focus. We're just gonna kinda, um, take a look at them. And then I realized this is... There's a lot of heat in the basement.

And suddenly I said, "You know, w- we, this is an oversized furnace probably even though the home's leaky and you, we have a temp rise problem." So on your, on your furnace plate they'll have a, a, an acceptable temperature range. So the return air is coming back from the areas we've heated and it's, it's a cooler temperature

'cause it's now time to heat it again. We measure that temperature and then we measure the supply temperature and the split. We have to m- match it up to the furnace rating plate. So a dirty filter will make that temp rise go high. So if you have a high temp rise, you're stressing out the f- uh, uh, equipment.

You're, uh, you're, you could be damaging the heat exchanger. You're, you're shortening the life of the furnace. So I had to come up and say, "Hey, I know you want us here for that, but, you know, this furnace and, uh, is older and, and we do have this problem. So as we tighten up this home, it is gonna, it's gonna get worse. Let's try to make some modifications. Let's maybe try to dump some heat." They know that they'll... You know, the furnace is older, so at some point they're, they're gonna replace, but let's properly size it and then you won't have this problem. And it, and, and usually what happens also with... It's very loud. When the duct work and the pressures or, and temperatures are not within spec, it's loud.

So it's, it's... Some people become used to that. Some people don't like it at all and- Um, so that sometimes that's don't shoot the messenger. They, they were great about it. They understood. It wasn't, uh, it wasn't my fault, but you ... We, we want to educate them. Um, you don't need to do this now, but when you do, let's do the right size and in short term, let's see if we can come up with a solution. We might be able to modify, you know, a, a ductwork, uh, setup that would, um, uh, make that temporize more within spec. So those are the, those are the types of things, um, that we're, we're looking at that we don't, uh, hear a lot that other people are looking at. And, uh, really the diagnosis before the, uh, the implementation is, is one of the biggest things you can do, so. So just for clarity, Wise Home Energy, first of all, you do the diagnostics.

Uh, and we've, uh, talked about the blower door, and, uh, you can consult an earlier program on the, on the podcast or whatever, how that works. Uh, but you do that, uh, and then you, you do the walkthrough, you do the inspection on the place. And you handle whatever, whatever needs to be done, 'cause this is again, a systemic approach. Mm-hmm.

Uh, whatever it is, whether it's, uh, replacement of the furnace, whether it's modification of ductwork, whether it's insulation. Mm-hmm. Uh, y- y- you do all that. You come up with a, a systemic solution. The bottom line being so that you'll be comfortable, so you'll be cool in the summer- Exactly ... warm in the winter.

Yeah, exactly. We w- we want you to look down the road five years. Um, it's a, it's really a 20-year decision you're about to make. Whether it's insulation or whether it's a heating and cooling system, you should look at it as a 20-year decision, 'cause you're gonna want that to last for 20 years.

You don't wanna buy a, a new heating system or insulation and have it last three years. Uh, and you want it to provide all those things you want: comfort, reliability, energy efficiency, um, health and safety, indoor air quality. So all these things coming together.

There's a lot of, uh, moving parts. It's a system. It's, um... Go and take your car in and you could, you, you could gas and change the tires or do a balancing, but all those things come together, the alignment, the brakes, the shocks, um, the seat cushions, you know, everything is, is related to the comfort of that ride and the safety of that ride. So, uh, we're looking at all those things. Sometimes they take more investigation. Uh, but at least that, uh, no-cost assessment that you already paid for gives you a nice starting point, and, and

90% of the time that covers everything really we need to, uh, do for the type of, uh, upgrades that the client wants to make. And you also know how to navigate, you know, the grants and, uh, and other programs through the state.

Yes. Uh, through NYSERDA, which is a taxpayer-funded, uh, agency of the state. Right. So one way or the other, you've paid for this, so you might as well, take advantage of it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We, uh, we, we' have two paths. You can come in. We want you to look at the income-based, and if you're not, uh, eligible for that, there's an assessment for everybody.

So give us a call. It's, 585-270-5836, or find us on' the web at. wisehomeenergy.com. Jeff Flaherty, Wise Home Energy. The Wise Home Energy Program, a monthly production of the WYSL stations, the Voice of Liberty. Thanks for listening, and get the podcast if you missed the show.

Always available at wysl1040.com. See you next time.