Why Ice Dams Keep Coming Back (And What It's Actually Costing You)

This podcast is brought to you by Open Door Mission, restoring hope and changing lives. opendoormission.com. Ladies and gentlemen, don't look now, but here comes another edition of the Wise Home Energy Show on, the

Voice of Liberty, WYSL, and WLEA. Pure energy. And in studio, we have the host for the most, Jeff Flaherty. Pure energy. Bob, good to be back in the hot seat again. Well, uh, uh, we hope it gets warm. Well, it's almost warm.

It's getting there, right? It's, uh, it's been quite a season. Uh- Yeah. Uh, matter of fact, uh, we just crossed the Rubicon here. We're recording this thing, uh, on. Friday the

13th. Uh, and, uh, we just hit 100 inches of snow- Is that right? -for the season. Okay. We're having a winter finally. Yeah. We, uh, 40, 45 total last year. Yeah.

It's, uh... and the heating degree days, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but it's, it's certainly higher than past years. Uh, so much so that I'm seeing that utilities are sending preemptive emails and text messages to say that your bill is going to be considerably higher this month. Uh- How nice. And so they're saying, "Well, it's a little bit of the usage, and it's a little bit of we're buying the, uh, uh, energy on' the spot market, so we're paying higher prices." So-

Yeah. Yeah. Delivery charges was killing us. Yeah. So they, uh, there's, uh, there's a lot of uproar over the utilities these days. And, uh, the other, uh, energy thing we see in the news a lot, or maybe we don't think it's energy, is, uh, there's ice hanging off of roofs and off of gutters.

And I see a lot of news stories about these, um, how to get rid of the ice. Well, not, not all those news stories are about the ice hanging off your roof. It's, some of it's about the other ice. That's right. That's right. So if you're from Minnesota, we're sorry if we triggered you. That's right. So there's, uh, you know, there's a general theme of, uh, we don't want ice around, uh, in these, in these northern counties,

I guess so. Ba dum bum. Um, what's interesting is when I see these, uh, TV, uh, news reports, it's always a roofer to explain, uh, the ice cause, which is not the person you want there, the roofer. Uh, 'cause the roofers generally will say ventilation. Now, uh, some of the, the TV news shows I've seen recently, they've said insulation, which is, which is great. They're adding a little bit to their repertoire, but they're not the person that's typically gonna solve this problem.

What they're gonna do is solve it short-term by removing the ice at a very expensive cost and/or removing the snow that melts and causes the ice. So, uh, I guess I always think they should call me, but if you called me, then they would have no news stories next year- ... 'cause the people would fix the ice.

So I guess it makes sense that they'll continue to call the roofers. Um, what they should do is really show the blower door test. Uh, that, that's, that's a key test so- Now, you're talking. Yeah. Yeah. Th- this is the pièce de résistance, uh, when it comes to what you do. Yeah. Right?

I mean- Yeah ... a- and, and after all, you've paid for the blower door test already- Yeah ... as part of that sky-high electric bill. Yeah. Absolutely.

And, uh, that's the test. And, and it's interesting, um, w- I think we're-- one of my reps was out at a doctor's home, uh, this morning, and ice problems, just bought the house. And he said, "You know, I,

I'm kinda using your analogy, Jeff, of, uh, how we, um, we do an in- inspection first. We do a diagnostic. We, we, we, we don't just prescribe a solution without doing an examination and doing some testing." And, you know, he said it, it's an easy analogy with doctors 'cause they completely get it. So, um, but it's, it's disheartening, uh, and really concerning when you have this ice hanging off your roof. Uh, so I thought we'd talk about, uh, the two approaches to ice. There's the short-term, um, solution or addressing the ice.

Uh, and that is really getting ahead of it. It's like anything. It reminds me of, like, shoveling a driveway. If you shovel a driveway right after a fresh snow, the sun beats down on the blacktop and, and, and helps you out and heats it.

Uh, if you, uh, wait and drive on it, and then it, then a couple of days later you try to go shovel it, it becomes very difficult. It's packed it down. It's, uh, hard to shovel. And the same thing re- is regards to a roof. So some people, um, are proactive, and you see them roof rake, and they're never gonna have ice dams because they're always roof raking. And so roof raking is a good preventative measure when you can do it. It's a little easier on ranch homes or Cape Cod homes 'cause they're lower. I mean, they have extension poles, so when you start getting to, um, Colonials, two-story homes, that becomes a l- little more of a challenge.

Uh, but that is a good way to preemptively prevent the ice dams. Once the ice dams form, you can still use the roof rake to get that first foot of snow. It's harder to do. You have to pull it down and then kind of come over the ice dam.

Uh, but that's another way to stop it from making the ice worse. Helpful hint, by the way.

While you're roof raking, watch out for the windows, uh, the, the dormers. I speak from experience. Absolutely. I, as a kid, my parents owned a small apartment complex, and, uh, "Jeff, uh, guess what you're doing today? You're coming out and roof raking, and we're chopping ice off the roof." Ooh. And oftentimes, I would be up there, uh, just hammering away, and you'd get a, a six-inch block of ice, and you're chipping, and nothing's happening, and then finally that ax just releases, and, I mean, I would have axes through gutters, w- through roof shingles, you know? And I always look over at my dad and go, "I'm,

I'm really sorry- ... but I just put an ax through the roof." Um, so it's not the safest thing to do. Um- Yeah, we had that great big long th- you know, that big long pole. Yeah. And the, uh, you know, the blade weighs something, so it's a little unwieldy- It is ... until you get the hang of it. It can kinda swing around. It is. It looks like that bar when the

Flying Melendas are walking across the rope, right? Exactly. Yeah. Balance bar. It's got a little flex and... So we always say you wanna make sure you can do it safely. Uh, one of the big concerns is where that electric riser comes in. Ugh. Make sure you stay away from that. Um, but y- you know, if you plan it out, you can, you can really get that snow off. I see these companies getting the s- all the snow off the roof.

Uh, it seems like overkill. Um, driving down here, I thought, "You know, let's take a reasonable estimate in Western New

York, in the past month, how much money has been spent on snow and ice removal on a roof?" And I would guess, I would bet a million to $2 million has been spent. This is not a cheap endeavor. Uh, you're just talking man hour labors. Uh, usually they're, they're charging a, a pretty good dollar amount per hour.

Then you start getting into steam removal, and that's kind of an expensive adventure, too. Uh, I mean, I remember some years ago, a, a gentleman told me that he paid $5,000 to have this removed from his roof.

Yeah. Um, so you can... That... Maybe next year it'll be super warm. Maybe we're gonna have a worse winter next year. So people will often call me and say, "You know, I, I, I never get ice," or, "I've never had ice." Well, we turn homes over very frequently, or we used to every seven years, so they might be new to the home.

So your home, really your roof has a potential to get ice. It really has like a, a load of potential to get ice 'cause it's a combination of poor air sealing, poor insulation, poor ventilation, coupled with the weather,

Mother Nature. If we have a cold stretch for 30 days and it doesn't get above 32, but it never snows, you won't get ice. But if we have snow, and it never gets above

32, uh, with the sun come out a little bit, a little heat during the day, and you start getting 25-degree days, the heat that is being lost in your, your living space is melting that snow. It freezes at the edge at the roof 'cause after you get past the wall, the overhang is always gonna be cold. There's no heat source there. So the ice will form there, freeze, then gets colder overnight, then it starts to warm up the next day, or we get some more snow. And so you have that freeze-thaw cycle. So your roof might be four-day, um, s- it can go with, uh, without ice, and then the fourth day it's gonna be a problem. Other homes might be 24 days, and some homes are so well-designed, insulated, air sealed, ventilated, that they're really never gonna have an ice problem. I was, I was looking out, uh, my back window, and I have a little, uh, you know, tented pergola, and I'm, I'm getting icicles on my pergola. Well, there's no heat source out there. No heat source. Well, other than the sun during the day. Right. So it's Mother Nature can make these small little icicles.

Um, and so y- y- we're, we're looking at what the heat loss is that is making the, uh, the ice dams. And we'll get a few calls on some homes we've done and, and we go back and say, "If we didn't contract what we were to do to stop the heat loss, we'll fix that." Um, but other times we'll say, "You may need more ventilation.

Um, the structure doesn't provide a remediation plan because of the components that are built in the home or the structure of the home." Um, for, you know, for example, um, low-pitch homes are very challenging because over at the soffit, you, you start to get only a few inches of clearance. And then to get a body in there to properly air seal and baffle that becomes more of a challenge.

Um, ch- clients that choose not to remove insulation so that we can properly re-air, uh, air seal it and then properly re-insulate it, have the baffles work up to an exhaust, uh, ventilation, um, plan.

So, uh, each home's different in that regards, but we use that blower door test and that energy audit to, uh, properly diagnose the leakage in the home. So we diagnose the leakage in the home, but we can also diagnose how much is leaking between that ceiling of that upper floor and that attic space.

And we prove that, and, and we, we show that. So if that blower door is 2,500, and then we go air seal and insulate, and that blower door comes down to 1,600, and the bulk of that air leakage came out of the attic, we know that that home's going to be improved.

We may need to add more ventilation in the future. Uh, but generally speaking, that, that system will work real well, and it works real well on traditional ranches, uh, colonials, um, that have the ability to have soffit vents up to ridge vents or box vents. Uh, when you start getting into trickier homes, uh, third floors of city four-squares that the third floor was never meant, designed to be finished, people finish it with good old roll fiberglass and particle board or whatever they can find, and those become difficult to fix. Mm-hmm. We always tell people,

"Don't, don't finish that attic without a concrete plan of being almost perfect," uh, because i- it's just, it's hard to remediate after the fact once you put it up. It's a steep pitch too.

Yeah. So, so harder to work on and... Yeah. And it's the drywall's up. It's kind of, yeah, I've got my s- my ins- I insulated it. People are always looking at me saying, "I insulated. I paid somebody to insulate it. It was insulated."

Well, we say, "Is it performing?" So, and that's the problem with insulation, is If it's not spray foam or w- a well-sealed cavity with drywall and caulk, the insulation will not perform properly. So air sealing and insulation tend to be different things with the exception of, of spray foam will tend to do both. And so you can't always use spray foam in every instance, but, um, but so people call up and, "I want it in my walls." Well, that, that might not be an option unless the wall is open.

Um, but so other, other areas that are problematic is duct work in attics, um, because duct work leaks. Um, and so it's... You wanna seal that 'cause it's under pressure. It's like putting your thumb over a garden hose. That air is gonna leak out and melt your snow.

Um, things like, uh, skylights are, are tricky because you've taken a perfectly good ceiling and you've, you've put in this wonderful little glass, but the- now it's losing heat not only through the glass, but through the four sidewalls. And usually we can treat the three walls, but the one toward the gutter, we can't get behind there. We can't treat it, so we give percentages of this will be improved. We expect it to be improved

70 to 80%, um, because that feature is just not a, uh, a good feature, but people like the light. And I always joke that they like the light so much that they want the snow to melt off the glass, right? So they, they wanna look up and see, so you're intending to have that snow melt off that glass. You're almost wanting to see the ice. I wanna see the sky. That's why I have the- Exactly.

Yeah. Exactly. So it, it's, um, it's interesting to me. I drive around and take pictures of, uh, ice, and it's just some of it is... When you start seeing some of it with brown in it, those are the, like, the wood tannins coming out. That means that water is in your structure and now has melted and come out and formed an ice, uh, dam or icicle off your roof. That, that is a problem. And we, we have that challenge, is people call and want us to fix it, and we...

D- You don't wanna fix it while it's happening 'cause there's generally water in the space. If, if it's that big of a concern, if you have water coming in, uh, drill a hole, let it out. Uh, you really just have to wait it out and get the snow off your roof.

And- You got fiberglass batts up there. That'll, that'll absorb- It'll absorb it ... but they could just be sitting up there soaking wet. Yeah. So we- people want us to come out and fix it next week, and it's just not feasible. We s- we need to let it dry out.

So there's that clientele that wants it fixed last week, and then inevitably, in a month, this is all gonna be gone. The birds are gonna come out. The buds will be on the trees, and it's out of sight, out of mind. And then what'll happen is December 1st, it'll start snowing again. And people will call up and say, "I need this fixed next week. I remember nine months ago

I had ice." That's, that's not the time to do it. You are... Between March and October 1st is a good time to really start planning, uh, if you don't want this to happen again.

So fascia boards falling off, gutters falling off, worst case, the water coming in.

Um, you know, sometimes we don't see the water coming in. We see the paint bubbling, so you know the water's already in there. It's already degraded that drywall, and what'll happen sometimes is we'll... it'll dry out. It will insulate it, but it, it kinda... The little residual moisture in that drywall will force its way down into the living space. And so you're still left with kind of a recurring problem, uh, because that water has kind of damaged those, those, uh, substances, and, and they're hiding behind that paint. So, um, those, uh...

What's interesting to me is you're taking a gamble when you don't do anything about it. So you're, you're, you're getting that cost this year. It's very stressful. People call up.

They're very, uh, they're very on edge. They don't want this water coming in their home. Dangerous. I have a neighbor who called me last weekend who sits on his maintenance board of his church and said, "I probably should have you over to the church. It's poorly insulated. We have these ice dams." Well, we got a call at 8:00 in the smor- 8:00 in the morning from the fire department because overnight, this big, giant icicle fell- Ooh ... and c- took out the gas meter, ripped it right off the gas line. It, it will do that, that kind of stuff. And the plow person was coming around at 5:00 in the morning and saw it, opened the window, and can hear the hissing of the gas line. Oh, my gosh.

And- In- inside the building? Uh, outside. Oh. So it's outside the building. Luckily, it didn't fill. If that had filled, that would've been a ginormous problem. Um, so i- it was kind of amazing how quick they got the new meter set, but now the building had been without gas. It had been without heat. Um, it, it was... But you think of the danger of these ice, um, formations, and they can fall and, uh, crush cars and, and, you know, people walking by, pets. Injure people, absolutely.

Yeah. So, um, it, it's amazing, but people are frantically calling roofers, and roofers are out. Uh, and I think to myself, uh, well, what a wonderful world. That's a good song. But I think to myself, uh, why spend that money year after year? You could spend it month after month. We could have an icing event in December or January, and you could be back at it again in February.

So- Mm-hmm. And, and March, the cruel- Yeah ... Let's remember now, March is the cruelest month, folks. That was, uh, what was it? '98, '99 when we had the, the 42 inches in one week. Oh, my. Yeah, that was unbelievable. Yep, remember that well. It was like Tuesday there was 24 inches, and then another 14 came on Thursday.

Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's, um, it's interesting, uh, but people don't know that it's a problem, and it's such a short-term problem, right? It's a week or two weeks or three weeks and it's gone.

I went to a home recently. Uh, I talked to, uh, uh, the lady and I said, "You know, besides comfort issues, are you getting any ice issues?" And she said no.

And two days later, I went to the home and, and the husband was there and said... I'm like, "You got a little ice?" He's like, "I am nervous. I'm going away next week and there's no one to roof rake." So maybe that's the delineation of duties in a home, so one person doesn't know, you know, that there's ice hanging off the roof. Um, and so it's... And they look pretty, right? I mean, if you don't know they're a problem, until that water comes in the home or it, it's hanging over your entry door, they kind of look pretty cool, uh, hanging off your roof. In fact, so much that we make Christmas lights that look like icicles, right? That's true.

Um, but then I think of you're paying to provide heat in your home, and you're cold because it's drafty because that heat is leaving.

It's going up to your roof and it's melting that snow. So you're paying to make that ice. You're paying to potentially create damage on your home year after year. That's not a worthwhile investment.

Um, so New York State, uh, has the energy audit. We're paying for it. There's numerous fees on our bill. It's hard to differentiate which ones aren't taxes, and maybe some of it provides some fuel to our home.

Uh, but one of it is called... one charge is called the systems benefit charge, and you pay into this fund, and everybody is eligible to get an energy audit. So not all energy audits are the same.

People have different, uh, skill levels. Uh, and, you know, w- our system is, is we come out to the home. Uh, not only are we inspecting in the attic, uh, many people just tell us that the last person didn't even go in the attic. So

I don't know how you'd know the conditions without going in the attic. Uh, we're using an infrared camera. We'll take the pictures beforehand, before we do the blower door test. Then if all conditions are right, there's no construction in the home, uh, with wallboard missing or trim missing, we'll do this blower door test.

Uh, and it shows how much air leaks out of the home, and it also shows how much connectivity is to the attic. And that's where, uh, we reintroduce the infrared camera, and we look at the differences between the infrared scan before the blower door is running and after the blower door is running. So the blower door is taking air through all the natural leakage points and pushing it out the front door, and it just, it lights up. It shows us where that air is coming. You can feel it. You can walk around and open doors and feel the air.

Um, and that's, that's just energy loss, and you're paying for that year after year. So we're getting lots of calls with the high energy bills, um, and that's 'cause the rates per therm or per kilowatt hour are going up, and we're also... It's temperature related 'cause it's colder this winter, so we're using more.

But it's also related to how well air sealed your home is, how well insulated your home is, and then the efficiency and proper sizing of your heating and cooling system. So all that's part of the assessment.

Uh, it's, uh, a non-sales pressure type, uh, visit 'cause we're coming out to the home. We're spending a couple hours, uh, climbing in the attics. I love the statement, "I've lived here 20 years, I've never been up there."

Uh, so at the very least, you get somebody to go take a look at your attic, you know, and, uh, people make jokes of what you'll find. Um, uh, we haven't found anything good, to be honest with you, but, uh- Haven't found Jimmy Hoffa. No, no.

We've, we've looked, but, uh, yeah, there's, there's nothing, nothing good that we've found so far. Um, but it's-- That's really a service that you've already paid for. And, and you can get a couple per year. It used to be you could only get one. Now they have a system where you register the name and address, and you can get two per year.

Um, so... And it's-- We put it into a software, and then we also have our knowledge of our existing homes that we already know. So we know what that blower door measures up to that volume of home, that style of home.

Um, and there's-- You know, we lay it out for you. We don't lay it out that day. It, it can take us, uh, a week or two to figure out what the home needs, show you what rebates are available to make those improvements, and now you're, now you're armed with good information. You have real data about your home, and you can make the decision if you wanna move forward, if that's, uh, uh, financially makes sense to make those upgrades. So, um, you know, one of the things we always say when you're having an ice event, uh, take pictures. Take pictures of the whole roof.

Uh, and people will send us pictures of the icicles from the gutter down to the ground and, and I've seen lots of ice before, so I don't, I don't ne- really need to see... I just need to see where the ice is. I need to see the roof, the orientation of the valleys of the house, um, the soffit vent potential, the gable vent potential.

So we always say take those pictures when it's happening. Document the conditions. Um, you know, it's similar to a, a crime scene. If you're watching a, you know, a crime unfold, take those videos. We're gonna want those later. Um, and that's why I always joke is w- we do CSI but without the blood. We just have, uh- Hopefully. We just have the soffits and the fascia falling off, but, uh, but we don't normally have any blood involved in our, uh, diagnosis, so. No police tape? No, no. Well, we do put it up sometimes with-- to, to let people not come near the crew when we're insulating. So we, you know, we-- I guess that's caution tape, but, uh- Um, so it's, uh, like I said, I'm guessing a million to $2 million was spent to remove snow off people's roofs and- A lot of dough when you combine that with, uh, how big the electric bills are now. Yeah. And so if we have the same event next year, you're gonna spend... There'll be another million or $2 million. And, and I feel bad for the roofers, you know, 'cause what happens is they lay down a new roof, and then they get a call a year later saying, "I got ice."

And it's like- Whoops ... well, it's, like, I... You know, you're not, you're not calling the right person. The roofer's goal was to shed water off your roof. It is not his goal to design, uh, an ice remediation plan. They put down ice and water shield on the first four, eight foot, uh, to stop that ice if it does get in. It may work, it may not. And then they ventilate. Um, you c- if you ventilate a home that's not air sealed well, y- you can cause problems. You can cause moisture problems in your attic, cause higher energy bills 'cause it draws on the home.

So ventilating without analyzing the attic is, is a bad idea. So, uh, these energy, uh, rebates are still available. We never know how long they'll last. They'll be there in some form.

Uh, but it's just the procrastination. I know if I don't shovel that driveway, uh, and a day or two goes by and, and it's been driven on, I, I curse that I, I procrastinated on that. And, um, so if you've had ice, uh, give us a call, Wise Home Energy.

It's 585-270-5836. You can call or text. You can visit our website. We got some information on how to handle short-term, uh, ice issues. We got a, a new video on our YouTube channel of showing you how to handle that ice when it happens. Good to know. And, uh, your service area includes?

So we cover Monroe County and surrounding counties. Um, we do also go to Erie County and, uh, we do play a little around, a little bit in the Southern Tier if, uh, if the need is there for the particular home and they desire our services.

Good to know. What's, once more with the phone number there, Jeff Flaherty It's 585-270-5836. Another edition of the Wise Home Energy Show here on WYSL WLEA. If you missed the show, uh, get the podcast at wysl1040.com. We'll see you next time on the program, the Wise Home Energy Show.