Ice Dams, Finished Attics, and Doing It Right

Well, the seasons have wheeled through an equinox, and it's time for another edition of the Wise Home Energy Show. Pure energy. Yep, that's right, and we have the host for the most here in the studio.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, we say to Jeff Flaherty. Hey, Bob. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and all our listeners. Absolutely. It's a fun time of year.

Uh, I love it. It's beautiful. It's- Yeah, you know, I mean, uh, the, the beauty is where you find it. Uh, some people, uh, don't like the snow and the ice, but, uh, it's festive this time of year. I think when we're standing in it' in March and it's all black- Yeah

... that's, uh, not so great. Yeah. That's, um, yeah, and, and that'll come. That, you know, ti- we just wait a little bit, and it'll get warmer, so, uh. It's not that' big a deal when you think about it. I mean, you know-

No ... uh, we're heading towards January. Yeah. We've already gotten through November and December, and, uh, you know, February's the shortest month of the year. Yeah. And, uh, by the, you get, time you get to the end of March, it's, uh, looking good. Yeah. You know? I think we can already start planning for spring, right? Yeah. I- Absolutely.

... I believe it. Get the, shovel out, and, uh, we'll put that away soon. Yeah. Yeah. No big deal. Won't, won't take long. Won't take long. Yeah. I, um, I always think that, um, you know, people, think, uh, when ice, is hanging off their roof, they think that, uh, some people don't know, that's a problem, and they, but they like it around Christmas, and

I, you know, I- sort of get it. And then the stores, like, sell the icicle-looking lights. So, we' really, we've really highlighted, uh, energy loss in the attic, and, uh, we've made it, uh, part of our festive decorations for the season.

So it's kind of neat to me the way we, uh, we've done that. In the town that I grew up in, there's an older house that had, always get, these, uh, giant icicles that would get off the eaves, and, uh, they would, they, if the weather was good, they would decorate them for Christmas. They would put lights on them. Yeah. Those things, uh, they're cool in specific spots. The calls we get, if they don't leak the water in, is, um, it's, hanging over my door, and, boy, you look at some of these.

We' haven't had them the past few years. You have to have, uh, kind of the perfect conditions. You need some snow, some melt, some snow, some melt. Um, University of Minnesota did a study some years ago, and there's kind of this sweet spot of temperature between

23 and 7, 27 degrees, and if you have this over a prolonged, uh, period of time with some snow and some melt, you're g- you're gonna make this ice if you have a poorly insulated and air-sealed attic. So, uh, but sometimes you see on. these, um, big older homes stuff that, wow, don't park your car under there, and don't walk underneath there. Yeah. Absolutely. It's dangerous, but, uh- Get a sunny day and the- Yeah. ... that, thing could f- fall right over on' you. Yeah.

Absolutely. But, and, and I think I should mention, those can be, uh, significantly reduced if not, uh, removed altogether by properly air sealing and insulating, uh, a space. And, and it takes some testing. We need to utilize, uh, some of our tools, the infrared scans and, uh, the blower door test. But, uh, it can be, uh, it can be remediated. And it's doing damage to your home, gutters and soffit. So not trying to be a downer at' this holiday season. I, we should move on to something, you know, much more spirited, like, uh- No, you're, you're, you're being as, as, uh, uh, Keith Olbermann used to say, you're being truthy. Uh, g- why...

G- g- do a quick, uh, 101 here on how that happens, why those big ice formations appear on your house. Yeah. So it's, um, so it is heat loss. So how does heat, um, transfer? It transfers, uh, uh, through conductive, uh, transfer or convective transfer. So conductive is, uh, if you grab a hot, uh, or if you have a copper pipe and you, you heat one side, the other side's gonna get hot. That's gonna move through, uh, a solid surface. Uh, convective is, uh, air transferring the heat. So really, a lot of times what we' hear is I've, you know, I put a ton of insulation up there, and, it, didn't stop it.

So, um, that. insulation is only as good, as. the air barrier. So if the air moves through the insulation, uh, it' will, uh, carry heat and moisture, and it will melt, that snow, on the roof. And then once it gets over that, uh, end wall, now it hits that cold part of the roof that's the overhang of the soffit, now it'll freeze.

And then the next day as that, uh, happens again, sooner or later that ice will not let the water go, by anymore, and it starts to back up underneath the roof shingles and into the home.

And sometimes if you think about that space, it's in the attic first before you see it. If you see it on your ceiling, you have some wet components in your home. It's been going on a while. And it's, you know, people call us and say, "Come fix this right away," and panic, and it's like, there's, you have wet components in your home. You don't wanna insulate that at that time. You need that to dry out. So it's more of managing the conditions. This is more of, uh, Sudafed and aspirin, I guess, where, where while it's happening you just want to, um, take caution and either use a roof rake if it's a low enough roof and try to get the snow off the first four feet of roof.

You don't wanna climb on the roof. Um, can certainly be dangerous, but you just wanna kind of manage those conditions and then come up with a game plan that's gonna be, correct this thing long term. Because that drywall, the paint, the, the moisture, um, if you cover that up and paint it, it'll kind of bleed through, and you'll see that problem down the road, um, y- i- if you try to fix it while it's wet, so. And over in the central part of the state, in the Ado- Adirondacks, and in fact in some, uh, uh, Conesus Lake cottages I owned once, I put, uh, what are called ice melts, uh, on the edge of the roof. Yeah. It's this, uh, sheet aluminum stuff, and it replaces the last, uh, four or five rows of shingles, uh, that are on that, the overhang.

Right. Yeah. So there's no way that the ice can get underneath that. Yeah. And I think it, yeah, I think it does a twofold. I think it allows it kind of to m- uh, get the sun and melt, it a little bit and, and come down. And

I, I think as you, the age of, uh, metal roofs, uh, really proliferate, you're, you're seeing that, um, there's that, snow catch or that ice catch that's about two foot up because that'll slide right off the roof.

And I think they found that, boy, when that happens, it's, it's similar to an avalanche, so they need it' to kind of slowly, um, slide off the- roof. Mm-hmm. Right. Kind of that same concept, that metal will heat up a little bit in the sun, and, it's a little slippery surface, and it'll, it'll slide off and help you out. But yeah, there's different ways to, to manage it. I always think down in Buffalo, um, it, it, there's kind of a unique... And I haven't done the research on, it, but there's this kind of unique gutter system. Um, I believe it's called the Yankee gutter system.

Um, and it's up the roof about three feet. The gutters land on the roof and it, I, it's-- I haven't really-- Like I said, I haven't researched it, but it really is intriguing to me when

I see it. Who knew? Interesting. Uh, yeah. So, uh, they just want the snow to, to melt and land in that gutter and run down the roof. Uh, I don't know how well it works. It's certainly on very, you know, older homes, 80, 100-year-old homes, but- Buffalo's got a lot of those. They got some unique structures down there. So, uh, you know, the, the New York State, uh, the programs that we access for, uh, these no-cost energy assessments and the rebates, uh, they, they have a lot of different programs. One of them was co-op advertising, uh, where they would, uh, help, uh, contractors, uh, get the message out about the energy assessments and the rebates and, um, that came to an end this past month. And it came to an end with an email that said, "We're sorry about your application, but this program is now closed due to funding. We're beginning to wind it down."

And, and, you know, for the contractors that were planning to use that money for advertising that is, um, that's, uh, certainly a hit, right?

Um, but what's interesting is I think of people that delay applying for these programs and, um, while we think the money is endless, and maybe it will be, but they can change the rules and they typically don't change it and say, "You know, in 2030 we're gonna change the rules." They typically say, "We've changed the rules and it started last week."

So it's always a good idea- As you've noticed. Thanks ... it's al- it's always a good idea. Uh, don't think about it. Don't, don't pontificate about it. Go get the assessment. At least you'll know what's going on with your home. We, we think the assessments will last for a long time, but the rebates, uh, and the grants that are available are, um, really quite robust at this time. But it's, it can change at a moment's notice. Uh, we don't know how their, their, their funding source or their supply of money, um, will, will continue on. So it's always a good idea.

We get people that, uh, I had a guy recently, he, he wants an energy assessment and to fix his home, and

I noticed in our system he called a year ago and didn't really follow through. And then I dug deeper on the address and the previous owner was in our system who'd contacted us and never let us out. So I'm suspecting this home has comfort problems. People are getting very close to letting us come out and assess it, uh, over the course of four years.

Uh- Then, then they bail. Yeah. Just let us out. We don't-- We're not, scary people. We come out and, uh, we assess the home.

Um, we do not, um... What is that, what's that move called? A suplex? We don't put your arm behind your back and make you- Oh, right, right ... we don't make you sign anything, uh, that you have to go forward with a-- We are a non-threatening organization. If you would like to fix your home, we can offer you, uh, a plan to do that. That's what we'll do. And, and so New York State offers, uh, a no-cost assessment. Uh, you have to just fill out a little paperwork.

We-- On that assessment, the state'll pay us, it's a reduced fee. We are willing to come out to almost be really probably a break even or a loss because it's, it's in-depth what we're doing and, and the knowledge and the skill set we have is very unique.

Uh, so we can't run out for a no-cost, uh, estimate and, and spend two, three hours in your home and, and spend another two, three hours to work up a proposal for your home. And we get calls like that, like c- "Please run out tomorrow."

Um, and so, you know, climb up, you know, climb-- get a ladder out and climb up in your attic. If you won't do it yourself, why would someone run out to your home to do it for no cost? And, and the reason I say that is some people don't even wanna fill out the one-page application or, or supply, uh, their utility bill to us. And, and I think the days of the, the free estimate are kind of, uh, winding down. I mean, there's, uh, there's limited labor out there. We have a, we have a unique skill set and, uh, to run out to your home where you might not even be available, you know, we get to a home and somebody says, "I gotta, I gotta go get an oil change."

So the-- it's not, it's not that much of a priority. Wow. You've had that happen? Yeah. But we, uh, but y-you just, yeah, if you wanna do it, plan for it. Uh, you know, look at, uh, you know, your calendar and plan for two hours. You don't have to walk around all the house. We won't m- we won't force you up in the attic.

Um, we can have a conversation. You can show us your home, and then we're gonna go about and do our inspection. Can they be home while you do this? Uh, yeah, they can be home. Um, we pr- you know, we'd prefer you to walk around the house and show us, uh, your concerns and, um, but, uh- You don't have to... It's not gonna tie up two hours of your time.

A lot of times with the work from home, they just, uh, we have a little conversation, you show us your home, and then we're gonna go do some tests. It's not gonna be loud. Uh, we're gonna inspect everything and, um, we can follow up at the end and then we'll, we leave the home.

We don't, um, we might talk about goals at the home, uh, but typically we're not, uh, providing a detailed solution at the home because it takes some time to work up, um, all these different components of the home to, to make a, a long-term solution. Now, you know, I say for, if you're gonna make a, an insulation or a heating and cooling purchase, it's a

20-year decision. You're, you're, you're really signing on furnaces, uh, boilers. Boilers, uh, uh, can, can certainly last much longer, air source heat pumps. But we're usually looking at 15 to 20 year lifespan of those, uh, pieces of equipment with proper, uh, service on them. But you're making that decision. Why would you want someone to run out and give you a, a 15-minute quote? Wouldn't you, wouldn't you wanna make a more educated decision on that? Yeah. The, the... I mean, the reason that you're calling Wise Home Energy at- Area code 585-270-5836. Thank you very much. The reason that you're dialing that number is because you want this job done right, and there is a right way and a wrong way to do everything.

Uh, the wrong way would be to, "Oh, you know, I'm not comfortable in my home, so, uh, let's just, uh, get a bigger furnace." Yeah. And just have, uh, some guy who's a... Or it's, it's, it's, uh, it's old, you know? It's, uh, leaky, so let's just, you know, install a newer version of the same thing that we've got. Yeah. That's not the right way.

Yeah. It's... I had a call, uh, recently where a gentleman called, left a voicemail after hours, and he was a, he was an insulation contractor in North Carolina. And, uh, kudos, his name was David Anderson, and, uh, I believe the company was Standard Insulating. Um, there's one up in New York of that name. But I... He said he had a friend up here that had a, it was a general contractor who had a real conundrum on his hands of a, a historic home that he was, um, somebody had done the third floor attic wrong and he really needed to guide him to the right person. And he said, "I've looked at your website.

I think you're, I think you're the guy." And it was funny, I took his name and looked him up and I, I thought, this guy has a, uh, a

500 Google reviews and they're all five star in North Carolina. I said, "This guy is a guy that, uh, he's not looking for a cheap fix." And so I called him back and we had a nice conversation and he described his friend's, uh, project. I haven't been out to it yet, but the home was done wrong and you've got health issues in the home. I believe there was some cancer. There was some indoor air quality issues. But the roof, what it sounds like to me, was so gone due to being done poorly that they ripped it off and now we've already got $65,000 in a, in a roof, uh-

Oh my gosh ... redo. And, and it's like they understand that they want this done right this time. This is a new, a new home then? New construction? No, this, this is a historic home. Oh, okay. So somebody had finished an attic. Finished attics are...

They cannot be done wrong. There's really only one way to do them. Um, you cannot get close enough on an attic, uh, because you're dealing with a roof deck that was vented and then somebody puts insulation up against the roof deck and drywall and, um, it doesn't do it right. It... There's either a vented assembly or an unvented assembly, but you can't have it somewhere stuck in between. And when I hear $65,000 for a repair,

I think to myself, don't you want it done right? I mean, that's, that's, that's heartache right there. Uh, who wants to waste that kind of money? I'm thinking with those numbers, th- those numbers, it's gotta be a big roof and maybe a really, really steep pitch like a lot of the old Victorian ones were. Yeah. And it might... Yeah, yeah. When he said historic, like

I said, I haven't been out to it, uh, but it's, you know, it could, it could even be like those old style historic roofs where we might be slate or something like that or, uh, tile or something.

So, but finished attics, uh, very difficult. Uh, people, people will call up and say, "You know, I want you to fix my third floor, uh, finished attic." And, and it's, once the drywall's up, there, there really is no...

There's no retrofit for that. It needs to be done before it's finished. Um, so those are the kinda, uh, the kinda calls we get. Uh, the... Another call I just had recently, um, or an email, the gentleman had a... He was finishing a six by nine pantry and he wanted, uh, you know, to insulate these walls underneath.

So it's probably like a 1920 built home. So if I... I didn't go out to the home, but usually these pantries are, they're kind of cantilevered over the back of the house and they're super cool, right? Normally they're, um, you know, beautiful cabinets and, you know, all the glass, uh, cabinets and the dishes. Uh, but he's just, you know, "It's six by nine and I want some wall insulation, some attic insulation." And it's, that's really not our wheelhouse because if you insulate that, and he wanted it done yesterday.

A- if you insulate it- ... uh, what are you gonna insulate it with? It... Insulating, a surface doesn't mean it's gonna be, warm, it just means it won't transfer heat as fast as an uninsulated space if it's done right. How are you gonna get heat to this space? So if I'm, if I understand this home, there's no heat run to that. And he was converting it to a bathroom.

So we don't even wanna a- a- attach our name to that because- I-i-it, it certainly can be done wrong in-- by the customer's design.

I mean, you know, it's not like a do it yourself. It's like, well, you might as well go throw fiberglass up and do it, it-- totally wrong. Go, go the whole route. Finish it- ...finish it the whole way. Make all the bad choices. Yeah. Uh, uh, but it's, it's, uh... So we, we're more of a whole house, uh, a company that is looking-- We want, in five years, you to say, "We had Wise Home, Energy out, and the results were spectacular." We don't want you to say, "You know, we had Wise Home Energy out, and I told them to put fiberglass in that wall, and it's just been cold. They screwed it.

up." We didn't screw it up. We just did what you told us to do. And, and so we've kinda morphed over the years as we don't, we don't do what you tell us to do.

We do what you tell us you want your home to be, and that's really what customers or, uh, people i-interested, they, they really need to think about what they want their home to be. And, and so we, we send them a questionnaire, uh, beforehand to find out, find those things out. Uh, we wanna know, uh... So when we go to a home, we wouldn't, we wouldn't necessarily find all the problems in the home because it-- we don't know, that that's a problem. So if we go in the summertime, we wouldn't know that your second floor is cold and drafty just by doing the energy audit. You' have to tell us that.

The home could test fine because what's cold and drafty for one person isn't cold and drafty for another person. We, we find that a lot in the homes, right? You' go to the home and one spouse is like,

"I'm comfortable," and the other one's like, "I'm cold or hot." So, uh, so we need to know that information so that we can then start looking at the proper testing and the proper design.

You're listening to the Wise Home Energy Show here on the Voice of Liberty and, uh, the voice of Jeff Flaherty, uh, the impresario here of Wise Home Energy. And the phone number is five eight five two seven zero fifty-eight thirty-six.

How'd I do? Yeah. That's great. I get it? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. wisehomeenergy.com. And, uh, we just-- that's what we're looking to do is, is, uh, fix people's homes and make them comfortable. We don't wanna sell you' anything. I-- It is not my goal or our team's goal to come out there and see what we can trick you' into buying.

That is, that has no value for us. It' doesn't make us, uh, sleep well at night. Uh, the big, uh, mission statement of Wise Home Energy is to feel good about the work we do. And that's, um...

A-a-and really when you-- once you're done, we, we really think in insulation and in HVAC, heating and cooling, we think of these things.

Uh, in-incidentally, when we think of HVAC, we-- it stands for heating, ventilation, and air conditioning. Uh, there's an old joke that says, uh, you know, "What's HVAC without the V?" And that's HAC.

So, uh, you want the ventilation, uh, so we need some, some way to get some fresh air in the home. Uh, and those, those are the, those are really the tenets of Wise Home Energy, is come out and, you know, make sure we know what your goals are and properly diagnose the home, and then just lay out a plan forward. It might not be for everybody. We understand. Sometimes you might be looking to move in a year. But if this is a home that you wanna stay for a few years or you want to-- if this is your forever home, uh, we can design a system that'll make a healthy, durable, efficient home for you for, uh, decades to come. And that, uh, that word is so critical, too, uh, the systemic approach, the system. Uh, it's just not, it's not something that raises or lowers the temperature in the house. Right. It's much more involved in that the, the whole house really has to be treated, right? I mean, isn't that the approach?

It, it-- A lot of times it does. Or, or most of the house, right? Yeah. But we have to inspect it. Yeah, we have to inspect it. And, and it's generally the challenge is it's, it's not, um... It may not be where you think it is. If you're cold in your living room, that-- a lot of times you'll say, "That's my window." Well, it, it could be 'cause the air is leaking at the top and at the bottom, and the path is right through your living room chair. And so, uh, we, we had a, a situation a year ago where we were in a grant program, and the gentleman was getting, you know, most of the work done for, uh, you know, a, a very small cost. And we did the top and the bottom, and at the end he said, "Well, this is... You know, my problem is, you know, I'm cold in this chair." And it, it, it was-- He had never told us that, and he was very upset. And the blower door, we had taken the blower door from, uh... I, I think it was, like, thirty-five hundred down to twenty-five hundred. So we had, we had cut twenty-five, thirty percent off it. And he-- What we ended up discovering is the home was, was block.

So there's a lot of different styles of home. I'm sorry, concrete block, is it? Concrete- Okay ...eight-inch block. So somewhere along the line, some mason said, "This is a great way to build a house." Maybe he read the, you know, children's tale where the wolf was blowing and, uh, you know, they, they thought the brick house or the block house would be better. I'll huff and I'll puff. But you can't really insulate that' block well. And then what they do is, they put the furring strips on the inside of the block, so there's not enough insulation cavity or to insulate. The cavity isn't big enough. And so it's cold. And then, uh, our inspection can only go so far, especially, you know, in, in these different programs.

I mean, you can, you can pay for, uh, uh, every test known to man if you'd like. But his duct work, they had kinda goofed it up, and they had tied it into the, the concrete block. So if you think of concrete block, it's like, uh, it's like, um, you know, that old, uh, you know, mouse trap maze where the ball goes down and- Yeah

... but each block is connected to the next block. So when they had punctured through, uh, he just had these whole cold drafts and, and we went Back and kind of fixed it, but, um, it was... And then we're dealing with, you know, the furnace was already there, and probably oversized, so, that's gonna be on and off. And so it's, it's tough, um, to solve problems we don't know about. And he had never really mentioned that, so we just looked at the top of. the home and the bottom of the home, and in, the budget, he, he probably wasn't ready to go swap out an oversized furnace. So that's why we wanna have that conversation, make sure we're, we're, we're properly diagnosing the home. But the reality is there is no better time than now to, to do this work. Um, it, it's a, like I said, it's a subsidized audit. We're willing to come out at a break even to do this, to climb in the areas of your home.

that m- 70, 80% of the people have never been into their attic. So we're willing to go inspect those areas, detail this, uh, home, and provide you with the solutions. And then the, the benefits of the rebates and the grants are, are, um, uh, probably the most, uh, robust in, in the country. New York State has a very robust, uh, program. So I had a guy call the other day and, and he wanted to fix his home. and, and I said, "Did you research any of the income grants?" And he said, "You know, we're a couple that doesn't wanna take money from the government." And I said, "Hey, you know, I totally, I respect that, but-" But you've... But it's important to note here, you've paid for this.

I said, "Pull out your utility bill and look at the line items, and you're already paying into this. So don't think about that you're taking this from somebody else.

Uh, you, you've already paid into this. This is, this is the way, to go. Why would you wanna pay more, um, if, if we're shifting funds?" Like, I said, the program can change its rules. It's not a window and door company, but, uh, that money is just gonna get shifted from maybe some solar, you know. But their budget is robust, and they want you to make these repairs or these upgrades in your home.

Uh, so it' was a nice conversation. He was thrilled. Uh, it, it's gonna be a tricky home. It's an 1880 built home with, uh, brick. Um, but hey, even if we can make some small improvements based on what the house will give us and what the program will give us, at least that's taken care of, and then you can look to, the next stage. And- You can generally almost make an improvement though, right? I mean, in most cases.

You, you usually can. Yeah, you usually can. So, um, you know, a lot of times we go up in attics and they're like, "Oh, it's insulated." Well, if it's not air sealed, we're gonna have a problem, and that's, you know, going back to that blower door test.

We're gonna do that test. So- Step one, right? Yeah. So, you know, call Wise Home Energy 585-270-5836. Uh, we're wil- we wanna have a 15-minute conversation with you and discuss your goals.

But, uh, you know, kind of the, the, the client that's not best is they wanna be on the phone for 30 seconds, not tell us any information, and then they want us to run out to their home. Usually, we can tell that if they won't give us their address because we've found it's hard to get to their home if we don't know their address. Yeah.

You know what? That never occurred to me, but I see now. Uh, a- and once again, you wanna have like a little laundry list of questions. Uh, you wanna, you wanna have a conversation- Yeah ... with the guys from Wise when they show up. Absolutely. Absolutely.

I'm cold in my chair. You know, whatever it is. Yes. Don't be cold in your chair. Don't pull out your hair. Call Wise Home Energy. I see what you did there. Okay. The always clever and, uh, entertaining Jeff Flaherty, uh, on, uh, Wise Home Energy, the Wise Home Energy Show. And thanks for listening. Get the podcast, by the way, at wysl1040.com.

Merry Christmas. See you next time.