Why Spray Foam Fails and What to Use Instead

It's the Wise Home Energy Show once again on the WYSL stations. Thanks so much for joining us.

The host for the most in the house, it's Jeff Flaherty. Hey, Bob. Great to be back here in studio. I thought of you. I was up in the Thousand Islands there over the boat show weekend. Oh, yeah? Yeah. That's a beautiful place. Oh, my gosh. I, I hadn't, I hadn't seen the boat show in Clayton in 15 years probably.

Man, what they've done with that place. Really? Yeah, Clayton has really come along. Beautiful, beautiful little town. But, but the, the boat museum though, I They've had some additions there, yes. Yes, you could say that.

Yes. So there's... I love those old wood boats, and, uh, really wood kind of coincides with houses. A lot of the houses we work in are wood, but recently, uh, up there was a, a boat called the Dream Boat, and, uh, it's $180 million yacht that

I believe, uh, Arthur Blank, f- uh, the founder of Home Depot owns, and it's quite a scene. I have only seen pictures of it, but that is, uh... That, that's, that's access to me. I don't know. It' seems like it' could house a lot of people. Yeah, I'm thinking. Well, I saw...

We did, uh, do a walkthrough on the McNally, uh, houseboat. Oh, did you? And that' was, uh, originally... What was the guy that, uh, that built Hard Island? Boldt. Boldt. Uh, Boldt Castle. That was originally his houseboat- Yeah, ... in the, uh, you know, like, uh, 1900s, and then it was owned by a McNally, as in Rand McNally, the, the, map makers. Oh, yeah. Yes. Yeah. I love that.

area up there. It's so pretty. A lot of fun. Yeah. Absolutely. So, um, yeah, we don't get to work on too many houses. up there, but I, I drive around and, I see houses that we could fix, you know? Um, you know, I, I think we gotta start a new segment called, uh, Tales from the Field, uh, just 'cause some of the, some of the stories we get are, are quite interesting.

I, I just had this lady, um, uh, we are doing a work scope for through, uh, through the Empower Plus program, so it's, uh, uh, it's got some subsidy, uh, portion to it, but some of it' she had a little, uh, contribution herself and, uh, she was a little concerned about that. And we went out and the, the state has these calculators that, that tell us, you know, what it'll be approved to install, and it' was, it was a difficult job.

And a lot of the contribution that she had was really undoing somebody else's poor work. We really... The state doesn't really incentivize 'cause there's no energy savings to removing insulation to go do it right, and, and she was very concerned about, uh, what she was paying for, was it fair? And, and so preparation, um, i- is, kinda key to these jobs, and she maybe was asking the questions on' the day of install that she could have asked, uh, many days in advance that we weren't aware of. And, and it reminded me of a, a new build.

Uh, a builder sent me a request to, uh, to provide a proposal to insulate this w- looked like a pretty high-end home from the design. And, uh, he said, "You know, we had problems with foam last time, and, um, we'd like you? to just quote a thin layer of foam and some batt insulation." And, and

I just instantly responded and said, "That is not advisable, uh, in this neck of the woods." I don't know, of any neck of the woods, because it'll, it'll create a dew point that falls right inside the fiberglass, so there's really a potential to create some, some mold and no way for the moisture to get out of the home with this little thin layer of foam. And

I said, "You know, I, I think you'd be a good candidate for, um, you know, talking to these folks from, uh, 475, uh, High Performance, uh, Building Supply," and, um, I said, "I'll put you in contact with, uh, uh, their local, um, uh, product consultant, Corey Murphy."

Uh, because, you know, somebody who's putting out together a high house, a high-performance house or, uh, a, I should say a high-end home, all these fine fixtures and beautiful architecture, but if you don't make the insulation level, uh, high-end, like, the building will fail. So, um, sent him over to Corey and hopefully they'll connect and, uh, you know, that reminded me that it was time to get Corey back into the show. So we have Corey Murphy here. in studio.

Uh, welcome, Corey. Yeah. Thank you very much. It's good to be here. Yeah. So we had Corey on' once before and, uh, I'd like to have him on many a times in the future too. Corey, a little bit about your background? Yeah. So, um, you know, I'm the product consultant for New York State, uh, for

475. Um, and in addition to that, I, teach, uh, both sustainability and passive house design over at RIT in their, uh, architecture program.

That's awesome. So yeah. No, it, it's, it's, uh, you know, a great, uh, a great way to mix it up- Yeah ... because you get to cover the academic component. But I'm also doing site visits, presentations with architects, talking to homeowners. Yeah. So you, you kinda get to see the, the whole, uh, uh, system as it be. Yeah. And you're training the up-and-coming, uh, uh, people that will, uh, change this industry, uh, for the better. So 475, um, would you say the- they're, uh, kind of, um, try to do high performance without foam? Uh, w- what would you say their kinda overall mission is? Yeah, I mean, the, the mission is to raise the standard, right? So whether that's doing trainings, whether that's, uh, doing presentations. We do carry materials, so that's, that is a, uh, a huge part of it. But, um, we also try to focus on just like free consulting. And when it comes to spray foam, I... There are just better ways to do it that are healthier for the people that live there, healthier for the environment, but, you know, more importantly- ... um, healthier for that wall.

So like, you know- Yeah ... talking about, um, putting a thin layer of foam, uh, and, and, you know, some fiberglass batts, that's something I see more and more, uh, flash and batt, um, is what it's called. Yeah. And, you know, it's, it's all context-driven.

Um, you know, the materials we put in the wall, it's not like just packing a suitcase, like just get it all in there. Um, you know, if we're talking about a roof with asphalt shingles, um-

The layer that's underneath those shingles, that's probably gonna be, uh, what I'd call vapor closed. Mm-hmm.

So the goal is keep all moisture out from above, but it also doesn't let any moisture dry to the above. Mm-hmm.

So with that layer of closed cell spray foam, well, where does the moisture go? Yeah. It doesn't. It, you know, it rots. Yeah. That's, that's what it does.

Yeah. So w- uh, I think that's one of our big lines, right? We say that things can get wet, but they have to be able to dry, right? And so we're sometimes getting prescribed or telling... Somebody tell us to build a wall that, uh, on the surface, uh, looks like it's gonna perform, but if it gets wet and it, and things, things change over, over the course of a year with humidity and dew points and, um... So that wall can get wet, and that, uh, layer of foam will prevent that wall from drying out, right? And so that's really one of the, what I call the magical, uh, um, solutions of 475, is you're really thinking in terms of how to, how to make that wall perform for a long, long time, right? Not just, just the first six months.

Yeah. Way, way past the first six m- Yeah. I mean, honestly, um, you know, every March I'll expect at least, uh, a, a dozen calls from folks in New York State, and, uh, it's because they had spray foam installed and there was no drywall up. So they could see that it's, it's separating from the rafters. They can see those gaps. Yes. And, um, you know, it, it...

Foam, the reason why so many folks like it is high R-value. Mm-hmm. Nothing else is gonna compete against spray foam with high R-value. Um, but that it's airtight.

And my answer to that is, well, how long is it airtight for? Um, tends to be about one heating season, and, uh, if you have drywall up, that's great. Yeah. But all that it means is that you can't see it.

Right. Right. Yeah. And then, um, that little crack, we've seen, um, applications where foam was installed in a little crack on the ceiling, uh, in between the joists. Uh, the hot, humid air now? has a direct path to the roof deck, which is, uh, super cold, and it just condenses, and it can rain right out of that little hole. It, it's amazing.

And, and some of that is, you know, they had a humidifier going or perhaps a grow room. I'm not sure. I, don't remember the specifics, but, uh, uh, the, the humidity was 70% in the home. So it was kind of a two-pronged approach.

Let's lower the humidity to a more, uh, reasonable level that your home is gonna enjoy, but we also had to seal that little, tiny hole. And, and that's what we do in home performance, is we think of the broad

10, 20-by-eight-foot wall, but the reality is we have to get down to the nitty-gritty. It's the cracks that, uh, cause us the problems and carry the air and carry the moisture and carry the trouble, right? And so that's really where Corey's, uh, specialty comes into play, is they're, they're thinking in terms of those small areas, right? Yeah.

And, and those small areas, they add up, they add up quickly. And it... And, you know, you think about what's on the other side of that foam. It's an organic material, right? Whether it's plywood or OSB. So just because you have a little crack doesn't mean that that's where the moisture is confined to.

Because OSB, plywood, it can soak up that moisture, and then it's covered with spray foam, you know, closed cell over most of it. It has no pathway to escape. Yeah. Let's take a quick pause here for just a second and let

Jeff tell you who he is and, uh, where he's from and what he does. Sure. So Jeff Flaherty. I'm the founder of Wise Home Energy. We've, uh, been in business for 14 years. Uh, we were the Energy Star Contractor of the Year winner nationally for six years running, and then they, they ended that award. So I would've liked to think that we would've continued- Jeff's got enough. That's it. Yeah.

So, uh, um, just, uh, we got a team of people that come out and, uh, diagnose the home. We, uh, access all the, uh, available rebates in the state. Uh, NYSERDA has, uh, some excellent programs.

The utilities have some excellent programs and, and, and there's some, uh, tax credits, and there's some federal stuff. So we, we bring the diagnosis first, uh, show you, uh... We'll help you with the paperwork, and we show you what's available, uh, what you can do to improve your home, what financial incentives are, to make it palatable, and fix your home for good, for long term. So we're with you.

Uh, really these products are, uh, guaranteed, uh, on the insulation level for 20 years. We're gonna stand behind that home performing or that, uh, assembly. We call 'em a wall assembly or roof assembly. We're gonna guarantee that that's gonna, uh, perform for 20 years. So, um- Not just an HVAC company. Right. And then we match that up with the, uh, uh, you know, proper, uh, uh, HVAC size and, and really indoor air quality. We have to look at, once we properly tighten down this home, uh, what's going on in the home and how do we get rid of the contaminants in the home.

So, uh, you know, well, that's where I think... And we're, we're more focused on retrofits. That's more of our specialty. We're getting a little bit more into new build, but we don't... We almost... That's where we're... The partnership with a, a firm, uh, like Corey's is a better suit for us because many times the builders are really looking for the cheapest price. Because insulation is not sexy, and no one really sees it. It's, not a finished product. It's hidden in the, walls. And so the builder is juggling all, these different components and, uh, trying to make the home look really special for the, the people that are, uh, building it. But who's gonna know whether it performs properly or not? And, and long after, you know, they leave, uh, that's where, uh, Corey's outfit, uh, just really focuses more on let's, let's make that home durable. Let's make that home perform.

Let's make that home energy efficient. So I think we'll see Wise Home Energy get more into the new builds, uh, when the demand is there, that people want, uh, safety, durability, and energy efficiency, and that's what, that's what those folks, uh, really offer. It's kind of a unique, uh- ... on the unique offering,

I would say, um, not only do they have the products, but they have the, uh, consultant aspect to, to get you to install it properly. So, um, Corey, so, so you, we were talking before the show, um, you know, um, new builds are an option, uh, additions. I mean, what, what are you currently, uh, you know, seeing where people can improve, uh, their approaches to, to doing, uh, upgrades, additions, or building their homes, uh, from an energy efficiency, durability standpoint? Yeah. I mean, it, it's really D, all the above. Um, you know, I'm getting folks reaching out for new builds, um, you know, whether I'm talking to architects, builders, or the homeowners themselves.

Um, you know, but certainly a lot of retrofits, a lot of additions. And I mean, it, if, if the environment is part of your concern, like the most sustainable thing you can do is retrofit a current existing house, right? 'Cause that's, you know, how much extra material that's not necessarily going to a landfill anymore.

Um, but I mean, I, I certainly don't discriminate between new builds and, and retrofits. Yeah.

Um, but I mean, yeah, speaking to, speaking to like the, something like the cost of a high-performance building, I think you hit on a few big things there.

Um, you know, as, as, far as how long should this home be expected to be high performance. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, the insulation's great, but what you're putting around that insulation has a massive impact on drawing out its durability.

Um, so you know, our, our materials, the, the end of life, uh, for some of them is like 100 years. Mm-hmm.

Um, you know, so there's that durability component where we're not just thinking about over the next 5, 10. Mm-hmm. Like we're thinking far down the line.

Um, another thing that you brought up is just like, you know, cost related. A lot of new homes, the, the idea is like, okay, we're gonna have the best, uh, you know, faucets in every single sink. Uh, we're gonna have the finest countertops in the world. And when you think about how much money you're putting into your envelope, it's a drop in the bucket compared to the interior finishes and, you know, insulation, um, you know, air tightness layers, like vapor control,

WRBs, house wraps, like those get covered up. So they're not exactly sexy. Yeah. They're more or less just there' and, kind of forgotten. But the fact is they can do a lot of work for, you. They can take a house and, just through the walls and the roof, they can make it a self-reliant house. So you're conserving all the energy that you're getting for free, that the people are creating inside, um, all the heat and, uh, and keep it.

Yeah. So, uh, you know, the, the return on, investment of having a really nice thick insulated airtight wall that's managing moisture, it- it's, it's durability, but it's also the kind of thing that, you know, you're not gonna have to pay

3 to $5,000 a year to heat your home. Yeah. And well, maybe, uh, you put off those fancy countertops- Yeah ... and get them five years later with all the money that you've saved. Well, that's, uh, that reminds me of a story. I- was at a home show, uh, this past year, and there was, uh, you know, one of those, uh, famous, uh, house flippers, house fixers.

Uh, and uh, pardon me, I can't recall his name. And, and he's giving this speech on the stage, and he says, "You wanna, you wanna make a good investment when you're improving your home or you're building, have a blower door test done." I was,

I was laughing 'cause I'm the only contractor at the show with the blower door. And, and he's saying, "Have that done." And, and things go astray on a remodel, and all of a sudden, you know, the contractor opens up and says, "This wall's, you know, trashed.

Insulate this thing properly, and cut your, cut your granite countertop." 'Cause the reality is how long do the colors last in a kitchen remodel, right? And 20 years later, you're gonna wanna rip that out. It is- Well, how long does the style last? Yeah. You know, 10 years later you're thinking, "I wish I did green." Yeah. 10 years after that, "What was I thinking?" Yeah. And he just said,

"Do this, this part really well and think of your savings and what you're saving in energy, and go invest that. And, and, and that's your retirement plan. Go invest that savings. Put your money there, uh, and don't put your money into this granite so that, you know, your, your neighbors are... Uh, are your neighbors pleased, or are they more jealous?

So, uh, you should tell them you're living in a comfortable home, not the most stylish home, right?" Yeah. And you can get granite countertops. They're gonna last a long time. But the point is, don't take your walls for granted. Do we have a rim shot? Ba dum tss. Oh, boy. Absolutely. Yeah. If I'd known, I would've had one up for you.

Uh, but I mean, speaking of the blower door test, right? Like that is one of the best tools, um, that any contractor, any... And

I mean, any trade can have, um, is just knowing what the air tightness is. Yeah. Because if you think about it, right? So the blower door test, it gives you the, the air changes per hour, or the, the, you know, the CFM, the cubic- Mm-hmm ... feet of air per minute that's moving through a wall.

So said one way, right? Let's say it's one air change per hour. Mm-hmm. Which is pretty low. That means that every hour when we apply pressure to the interior of the house, the air is moving through the walls once every hour.

Mm-hmm. Code is three air changes per hour, which is pretty, uh, you know, it, it's not the most difficult target to hit- Mm-hmm ... if you are specifically, you know, strategizing for air tightness, but that also means that three times every hour, all of that air that you are paying to heat and you are paying to cool-

... is going right outside. Yeah. So you are, you're heating the outdoors where you're not really appreciating it. Yeah. So- And, and if you're... And I always say, you're, if you're away at work and the, and the home is just leaking the air, like, it, there's no particular purpose to have a home that leaky. And on our retrofits we're, y- I, there's almost kind of a standard that in the '80s built, you'll be looking for about a eight, a seven to nine air changes per hour. '50s, you're probably looking at 10, 11 air changes per hour. And you start going pre- pre-40s and, and, and it's just a rule of thumb, but what we find it, it can fall on that, is you're looking at 13 air changes per hour, and Corey's talking the code is three, and you can hit one. And that blower door, that's why we, we mention it here at least, uh, once every show,

Bob, is it... Wise Home Energy is such a firm believer in it that, for example, the home we, uh, I started the show with saying the customer was a little concerned, uh, on what she was getting.

Sometimes insulation is, you walk out and sometimes people will go, "I, I don't feel anything. I don't notice anything different." That blower door provides us concrete evidence that we did what we said we were gonna do. It's kinda like going to the doctor and your blood pressure's high, and we give you a medicine and it, and it takes it down to the right range. You hopefully will feel better, but at least we can prove that we did that. And

I, I encourage other contractors to, to get that blower door out and not be lazy due to the weight, or because they don't wanna be held accountable for not performing, uh, air leak, air reduction. Yeah. Don't, don't be afraid of the blower door, right?

It, it's only the end result, like the, the end-all be-all if you're not using it throughout the project to get a sense of how you're doing, and that's why it's such a great tool. Yeah. Um, you know, if, if you wonder why your, your heating costs are so insanely high, um, it's because, you know, you're, you're heating all of the air outside of your home and, and, you know... So from a, from a cost saving standpoint, making an airtight house, like that is going to get you high performance.

But as far as durability goes, if, if you think about all that air movement, all that humidity that we're generating inside, that's, that's where the moisture that we're talking about with the spray foam, like that's where it comes from. You know, every shower, every time you throw a pot of water on the stove to boil and you're gonna make some pasta, that's all humidity, and if you have a leaky envelope, that's the moisture that we're talking about that gets trapped in there. Yeah. So, you know, by, by making an airtight house, by testing with a blower door test throughout, um, not only are we talking about savings as far as, you know, heating and cooling, but we're also talking about savings as far as you don't have any problems with mold or rot.

Yeah. You're, you're, you're taking care to that before it becomes a problem. Yeah. And, and we think of some of the ancillary benefits. The... When we tighten down that home and we do it properly, um, those air paths are the same paths that the pests use, the bugs, and the mice, and the rodents.

And, uh, working with a, a, a coworker who's repairing a wall and he's like, "I open up this wall and I could instantly smell the mice droppings and urine," and it's just an old nest and it just encapsul- encapsulates it in that wall.

Uh, so those are some of the extra benefits that who wants to deal with in their home? Mo- most people don't like pests. Some people are like, "Eh, that's just another critter in the home." But, but those, those are some of the extra benefits, um, because for some people, those mouse droppings and urine are, are an allergen for them. And, and it's not for everybody, but it, for some people it's just not a, not a, a, a good environment to live in. So those are, um, you know, just some of the things that, that we see. Some people call up and say, "I have pests. I just come air seal my home 'cause that's what I wanna solve." But, um, we just, we know that air tightening the home, air sealing, making a good, uh, wall assembly is, is just good long-term practice for, for the home, for the customer.

And if, if you're sitting at home and you're hearing us w- and you know, we started off saying, "Yeah, foam's not a great solution," and now we're talking about air tightness. So you went, "Well, how do I make an airtight house without foam? 'Cause I thought that was the way to do it." Mm-hmm. Well, foam can make a house airtight temporarily- Yeah ... I would argue. But, um, it's not very durable. So the materials that you use, the steps that you take, the strategies that, that are used to assemble your walls and your roofs and make sure that it's connected all the way through, that's where we come in. Yeah. Um, you know, that's the materials that we carry. But, um, you know, stepping outside of my role at 475 and thinking about more my role at RIT, like that's, that's what we're teaching.

Um, how do we make sure that our walls can be airtight and can still dry? And, uh, it, you know, that's, that's what high performance materials are designed to do. Yeah. And that's what they do in reality.

Yeah. So what's, uh, uh... How does somebody get ahold of you, Corey, or your company? What's the contact information? Oh, yeah. Uh, we have a website. We have lots of free resources, e-books that you can download, give to an architect, give to an engineer.

Um, you know, we've got a whole blog series on foam fails. Mm-hmm. Surprise, surprise. Um, but yeah, the, the website is 475.supply, and, uh, you could always just send me an email. It's my initials, uh, cm@475.supply. Beautiful. Beautiful. So, um- Real, real quick, let's just jump in here too. There's a lot of talk about the blower door, uh, during this program, and that- Can be paid for through NYSERDA, yes? Um, so through their, um, through their income-based programs, they have two income-based programs. Uh, it's all called, one called Empower+. That, that does include the blower door. Then at the m- what we call the market rate level, where anybody can get a no-cost assessment, um, Wise Home Energy believes in that blower door test so much that we now add that on, uh, for reasonable size houses. We're looking at probably 2,500 square foot or, or lower.

Uh, we're gonna add that on at no cost. So the blower door, um, as Corey said, it'll, it'll tell you the air change per hour with a calculation of that blower door, but it can, um...

There's add-on tests that we can do with zonal pressures, uh, cantilever floors. We can determine how leaky they are to the, to the home.

Um, so there's some extra tests we can do. We can discover how leaky duct work is that is not in the envelope, if it's up in the attic or down in a vented crawl space. So there's extra tests that, uh, sometimes we might have to charge for because, you know, honestly, with all the tests you can do in home performance, we could probably start at 7:00 in the morning, and we could probably stay there till 5:00 at night, right? So we have to pick and choose the right test. Similar to if you go to a doctor and say, "I have a problem with my eye," you don't want them checking out your toes. You want them to go focus right on the problem. And sometimes we don't know what the problem is, 'cause the customer says the problem is high energy bills or, um, comfort issues. We have to kinda use our experience to, to delve in and dial down and do the right test that that particular home needs. Comprehensive, uh, approach, and, uh, it's, it's a wealth of information on this program.

Uh, you can get the podcast if you missed part of it at wysl1040.com. Give them your contact information. Sure. That's important. It's, uh, wisehomeenergy.com. Um, give us a call, 585-270-5836. You can call or text. Uh, start the process.

It's just a conversation. You know, we need to figure out your goals. Um, we'll match those up and tell you if we can, um, we can help you get to the, those goals you have for your home, for your comfort and your ability. Yeah, you wanna have a lasting, uh, solution, not just, "Oh, you know, I'm feeling chilly," or, "I'm feeling hot, so let's make the air conditioner or the heater bigger." Right. Right. Right. We wanna properly size it. We wanna, we wanna do a well-thought-out plan before we start any project. All right. How long you been doing this? Uh, 14 years and three months and four days. By the time you hear this program, that may have changed. All right, 270-5836. Don't be cold or hot or humid or uncomfortable in your home.

Pick up the phone and... Call Wise Home Energy, 585-270-5836. Gents, thanks so much for being on the program. We'll see you next time on the Wise

Home Energy Show.