Vapor, Air Leakage, and Why Your Wall Needs to Breathe

Once again, on the WYSL stations, it is time for the Wise Home Energy Show with Jeff Flaherty. Pure energy

And here he is, the host with the most, Jeff in, the studio. Hey. Pure energy. How's it going? Excellent, Bob. It is always so super nice to be back in front of the master of ceremonies- ... Bob Savage.

Oh, please, stop. Keep, keep, k- keep it up. I like that. Yes, absolutely. Flaherty. gets you everywhere. That's, that's my, almost my last name, so. That's true. I never thought of that. That's amazing.

So yeah, back in the hot seat, uh, really, uh, once again talking about homes. And, uh, it's kinda crazy out there. Supply and demand, we're just still seeing the, uh, challenges with prices going? up and, uh- I was gonna say, mostly demand these days. Yeah, and really-

Crazy ... yeah, you think about, uh, you know, I don't know if it's loosened up, but the, the demand was so high, supply was so short that. w- it, there was no home inspections. And, uh, you know, we, we've seen a lot of heartache with that. Sometimes we get these calls and we go in and we're like, "Oh, boy," you know? Especially when the home has been flipped. Flipped is kinda lipstick on a pig. It looks great, but the house, uh, doesn't really, perform, and, and, people find that out very quickly usually. So, uh, the stuff that's hidden is really- the, stuff we, do. It's not glamorous, but it shows up in the energy usage, it shows up in the comfort, and it shows up in the, um, durability and sustainability of that. structure, uh, going forward. So we- Probably safe, probably safe to say that that, uh, that's like, the number one, uh, factor when, uh, when you're actually living with a home, you're in there, you're trying to make it work, the livability is so critical.

Absolutely. Yeah, it's, it's, um, you know, we see some of these things. People are tweaking their homes and, uh, you know, they, they can tweak them the wrong way and, and, suddenly you can get some mold and, um, the way we use our homes can be, uh, um, detrimental to the way they perform, so. That's an interesting point. You can make it' worse, right? Yes. I mean, if you just, like, do the scattershot, the seat of the pants, firing from the hip, all those cliches, you try that, uh, stuff, uh, with the environmental factors in the home and you can make it worse. You really can. You really can. It, uh, there's the rules of thumb, and no lives tales, and all these type of, type of things that, uh, uh, tend to be Band-Aids and, um, like Band-Aids you, you sometimes don't find out till, uh, a year or two down the road that it wasn't the best course of action. Right. So. Right. So let's tell them what it's all about. This is the Wise Home Energy

Show, and Jeff Flaherty is the, uh, major domo here of Wise Home Energy. And just tell the folks, uh, you know, give them a, a quick, uh, you know, 45-second elevator talk about what it is you guys do. Sure. We, uh, we- kinda do all things home, energy, comfort, and, sustainability, and, we really start that' out with a, uh, whole home assessment, uh, accessing, um, state grants that'll give you either a light assessment or, uh, you know, a more advanced assessment. And similar to a doctor's, you know, uh, you just, we really wanna find out what's going on, your concerns, um, how you want the home to perform in the future. So we, uh, work with the paperwork, uh, with the state, process it, get the either light assessment or, um, a little more testing, a more advanced assessment, and show you what's going on. One of the things that, we love at Wise Home Energy is we, we're not into sales. We don't really sell anything. We find out what you'd like to f- have fixed in your home, how you'd like your home to perform, and we show you some paths that, uh, will make it, uh, perform that way. You're not just HVAC guys. That's correct.

Right. That's correct. And, uh, so from there' we, we look for grants and rebates, and really there's al- there's a- almost something available for everybody to take advantage of. So, uh, that's our specialty. And, um, the demand, as we talked about, and supply, the demand is high. Uh, if anybody's out there looking for a career, I would certainly encourage them to, to call us at, 585-270-5836.

Um, these are career positions. We are, um, you, know, looking to, to show, people that, uh, this is, this is viable and you can, uh, um, have a career, y- health insurance, and, uh,

401 s, and we're, we're looking to really, uh, be competitive and, and not the, old school, uh, churn and burn for employees. We, wanna build this team and, uh, offer our services to more people. So there's our little, uh, there's that little plug for, uh, a career option at Wise Home Energy.

You've got quite a few, quite a few people at Wise Home Energy, who've been with you what, if not from the beginning- Yeah ... for many years. 11, 11 and 10 years a couple of them, and we've been in business for 13 years. So, um, you know, they found a place to stay and they've, uh, you know, loved the, the mission statement and the vision. So, uh, they've been a huge part of our, our growth. So, um, so yeah, that's our, that's our, uh, you know, 45-second if not two-minute, uh, elevator pitch.

And, uh- That's fine ... so, uh, but we, you know, some of the c- calls we get are, um, a little outside our norm. We're normally a retrofit company. We don't really do, uh, much new build. Uh, some of the reason being is we're booked out usually, uh, two to three months, so it's hard to really time that. And sometimes, uh, you know, the builder's goals, and the homeowner's goals, and our goals might not all align. But occasionally we get some calls, uh, from people that are looking for

Um, the vast, uh, type applications for either new builds or some got rehabs. And, uh, um, uh, so there's a company called, uh, 475 Building Supply, and, um, we sometimes, uh, uh, work with them or, or people have bought products from, and, uh, we, we rely on the experts in the field, and we just happen to have one of those experts in the field here today. And Corey Murphy, uh, has a, uh, a, a really, uh, interesting background and quite of, uh, a few different, uh, skill sets that he, uh, gives to the community through his, uh, uh, company role, and also he's a professor at, uh, RIT, uh, teaching some classes. So we'll introduce Corey here and have him tell us a little bit about- Wait a minute, he's a professor? He's not even wearing tweed. I know. How can this be? I know. Hoping that's next show. Well, I put a collar on this shirt just to, you know- Oh, I see

... to have like ... it's, it's just one that you added on. Okay. Got it. Yeah. So welcome, Corey. Yeah, you wanna tell us a little bit about your background? Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I'm a certified Passive House consultant. I'm a product consultant over at 475 for New York State specifically.

Um, yeah, been an adjunct at RIT in their, their graduate architecture department for the last, uh, this is my fifth year.

And, um, yeah, I mean, for 475, I mean, we, we provide materials, but, um, we put a significant amount of resources into the knowledge that we put out there. You know, if you check out our website, we have free e-books. Um, you know, whether you're doing a new build, you know, two-by framing, or if it's a, you know, two-by retrofit, a masonr-

I mean, regardless of what kind of, um, you know, uh, build or retrofit, um, you know, context we're looking at, we've got just free resources for you. Um, you know, I'd say everything except for straw bale.

Okay. But with straw bale, we still point you in the right place. And that's, that's what's so interesting, um, about the services that they offer and, and, and what Corey has to offer is a lot of the products we buy, um, the manufacturer's like, "Here you go. Good luck with it." You know, read the back panel on the product or read the manual and do the best you can. And so to have not only that, uh, high-end, uh, product, but to have that, um, knowledgeable resource in Corey and his team to be able to work with and get that information is so refreshing.

Um, it's, it's kind of unheard of in this day and age. It's, it's really service. And, um, it, it gives a lot of confidence to the end user, but it also gives a lot of confidence to the folks that are installing these higher end products that, uh, you know, maybe we're not used to installing every day. So it's, it's, uh, it's an awesome thing that your company and, and you are, uh, offering to, uh, the people that are looking for, um, these longer term sustainable, um, homes. And, uh, really that's what he is, is kind of an expert in. And we- I guess we wanna talk about what does that mean, sustainable and passive home and some of these topics- And, and what are some of those products? Yeah. What, what, yeah. Absolutely. He's got some neat products. I'll let him discuss maybe some of his favorite or some of the most, uh, used ones. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, ultimately speaking to the durability and to the performance, right? It's, you know, everyone is... I mean, most folks tend to be familiar with R-value, right? Um, but R-value isn't necessarily like the most direct indicator for performance.

Um, the way we see it, there, there's kind of the, the hierarchy of priorities, right? Number one, keep water out. Um, you know, bulk water will ruin your house regardless of what R-value's in the wall. Mm-hmm. Uh, keep it out. That's what makes a home.

Um, the next biggest concern as far as the durability goes is actually air leakage. Um, air is capable of transporting significantly, um, more water than you're thinking of. Um, when you think about, you know, going into homes, tearing down walls, and seeing, you know, mold issues or rot, um, that, that tends to be directly related with the amount of air leakage that, you know, is ultimately just depositing moisture in that assembly.

Um, once you have it sealed up, uh, the next piece is really making sure that you're managing vapor. So there are a lot of materials out there, um, that, you know, we'll talk about having a very high R-value and, and, you know, it's gonna be airtight, but not necessarily allow for that, that wall to do what it needs to do, which is dry. Um, so if, if we're talking, you know, metrics, right? So

R-value, how much thermal resistance is in that wall, one metric that's really important for us to kind of understand is, uh, permeability or the perm rating.

Um, and that refers to how much, uh, vapor can get through that material, um, you know, one way or the other way.

So, you know, common materials like closed cell spray foam- Yeah ... that is an impermeable material. That's part of the goal of it, you know, prevent any vapor from getting into it. Um, but if we think about how our walls want to behave, how moisture is going to interact with those walls, we also see that it's, it's not necessarily the most durable, um, material out there. So we advocate for predominantly vapor open assemblies. That's your common, you know, fibrous insulation for your, you know, studs, whether it's rock wool or fiberglass or cellulose or straw bale.

Um- Yeah. Rock wool. Now, there's a, there's a term I haven't heard in years. Wow. Yeah, yeah. I, I, uh, and, you know, you can throw, uh, hemp in there is becoming a, a more- Yes ... viable, cost competitive insulation. Uh, wood fiber insulation, you know, TimberHP is, is projected to be, you know, really producing a lot of wood fiber insulation that should change the game, um, you know, pretty significantly. But we, we tend to recommend these fibrous materials because when it comes to moisture, if there's any moisture in that wall, they're gonna distribute As opposed to a vapor closed material, which is just, gonna kinda shed or have a, a concentrating effect. So pardon the ni- uh, naivete of the question here, but i- is there such a thing as a material that has one permeability, uh, factory in one direction and a different one in the other direction?

So yeah, absolutely. There, there are. Um, there are different materials that, that have, uh, embedded layers within it. So, um, like zip panels, you see them everywhere. You, you have OSB with the, the green coating. That green coating is gonna be 16 perms. Um, the OSB, not gonna have 16 perms for it. If it's like Zip R, you've got the, the, the polyiso in there. That's also not gonna have the same permeability.

Um, I mean, one of my favorite materials and, and one of the materials that I think does the most for, number one, keeping the assembly airtight to prevent leakage, but number two, being able to moderate and manage the, uh, the, the moisture that gets into the wall is, is, uh, smart vapor retarder called Intello. Um, and essentially it, it is airtight, and its permeability reacts to the amount of relative humidity, um, or airborne moisture that it's exposed to. And, and this isn't the same RH, like if you pull up your, your weather app and, and you're looking outside. It's not, not the same thing. We're talking about interior relative humidity, 'cause we wanna put that on, the inside of our insulation, keep your interior condition space where you want it. Um, and number two, the amount of moisture, the airborne moisture, the humidity in the wall assembly.

So Intello, uh, during winter, if, if there's, you know, RH in the wall, it's in the form of condensation, you know, physical little droplets of water. Intello's gonna be vapor closed, um, at, at

.13 perms. So it's a Class 2 vapor retarder. If the RH in that wall assembly and, and kinda average with the interior gets up to 70%, then it is going to be, uh, that

1.7 perms, so still relatively closed. Beyond 70%, you know, as we, get to 80% relative humidity, we're at eight perms. Anything beyond that, it's going up to 13 perms. So it's, it's really designed to keep vapor from getting into the assembly during winter, where you have all this warmer interior, more humid conditioned air.

Um, you know, and, and also promote drying, um, during the summer, which is when you, you have the warmer air outside, the more humid air outside, and the cooler conditioned air inside. So it's really, it's- it's working with the natural flow that, you know, humidity, um, you know, wants to go with anyway. You're listening to the Wise Home Energy Show on. the WYSL stations, 92.1 FM, 95.5

FM West, and AM 1040. Your host is Jeff Flaherty from Wise Home Energy. And that phone number, you' know, because you don't wanna hate your home, and you' wanna pick up the phone and you wanna call...

585-270-5836. Uh, and here we are, uh, with Corey Murphy in, uh, studio, and, and I loved what he just said. It's really, it's really interesting.

It's hard to, uh, you know, think about from the average consumer that, the world, uh... Well, some of the cliches are the, the world hates a vacuum is one, but, but more the world is trying to equalize, right?

So wet is trying to go to dry, uh, hot is trying to go to cold, and, and, those are the products that, um, Corey has that, um, manage that. So at one of. our old adages, I think, uh, that' falls into what you were just discussing, that is that things can get wet, but they have to, be able to dry. And where we see problems in the home is when they get wet and they don't dry, we have issues. So Corey's products and his knowledge of how to install those products is really, um, able to help a, you know, resolve that, issue or prevent that issue.

So Corey, what's the, you know, just for the listeners, what's the best way to, to get ahold of, uh, you or your company? What's the contact information there? Yeah. So I mean, you could always go to our website. Um, you know, just type into the, the Google search bar 475 High Performance Building Supply. Um, you know, even our name

475 is, uh, a reference to a, uh, passive house certification metric. Um, you could always just, you know, email me at, at cm, uh, @475, the numbers,

.supply. Um, or give me a call, 585-380-1084. Um, yeah, it's, I spend a decent amount of time, you know, either talking to homeowners, talking to builders, talking to architects, you know, providing presentations, providing, you know, onsite trainings. We, we' really, try to provide the full service 'cause, you know, from our perspective, the more builders that, that feel comfortable, right, knowing the, the, the basic question, right? Which tape goes where, right? What's the, the purpose of this material?

Mm. Um, you know, if, if, if this Intello is supposed to be airtight, how do I make sure it's airtight, but still, you know, apply it to the stud? Yeah. Um, you know, and, and, I'm, I'm happy to either talk with anyone through it or, you know, just come out and, and see the project. Yeah. And it's so, it's so big. Um,

I just, this week I had an email from a builder, uh, just said, "I'm, you know, spray foaming houses in, in..." Didn't have a lot of detail. That, that's great. And, you know, "I'm concerned about moisture." I didn't know if that meant he'd already had some moisture. "And I'm trying to debate whether an HRV or an ERV, uh, heat, uh, recovery ventilator or energy recovery, recovery ventilator is best." And that's really not enough information for me to, to, to say much, but, you know, I gave him a little, information and also suggested that he, uh,

Google, uh, a company, uh, down in, um, the South, uh, I think it's, uh, DH Horton. Um, but there's, there's, we're starting to, uh, see that we build the code with these prescriptive, tighten it to this-

Um, put it in a little fresh air, hope, hope and pray, and, um, that's it. And we don't know how the home's gonna be used, and the moisture, uh, is starting to cause some problems in homes, and that's where Corey's products and design, uh, help prevent that, if I'm not mistaken, right? Yeah. No, absolutely. The, the goal is to,

I mean, provide as many directions for, drying as possible, hopefully towards the exterior and the interior, but also make sure that from the interior side we don't have, um, you' know, moisture getting in there through diffusion- Mm-hmm ... right through the material or, um, through air leakage.

But, you know, as, as far as HRVs and ERVs go, we' actually... We, we carry those as well. Um, you know, I'm, I'm, uh, part of the, the two-person team seeing our, our, Brink rollout for HRVs and, ERVs. And I'll say f- for this climate, tends to be the recommendation for an ERV. Okay.

Um, yeah, 'cause ultimately, uh, an HRV is recovering heat, right? Heat, recovery, ventilation. Most of the, uh, the HRVs you see out there are, gonna be somewhere between 85 and, and 91% efficient. The way an ERV works is it's still recovering heat, although not as efficiently, but it's maintaining the, the, the, the humidity on' either the interior or the exterior. So if you have an HRV, you could be getting a lot of extra humidity during the summer. Mm-hmm. Um, you could be drying out during the winter.

With an ERV, it' takes that. interior humidity, brings it right back. And as far as those humid summers, takes that exterior humidity, puts it right back out. Very nice. Yeah. It's, it's, uh... It, it's where we really get into the testing, right?

It's, um... We can design and model, and Corey, uh, certainly gets into that also, modeling these homes. Um, that's what we worry about, the builders that aren't spending a lot of time modeling, or as we've talked on past shows, at the last minute they go, "Uh, add a new furnace." I, I... I've had some big homes where they're 20 years old and, and I say, "How did you end up with a second furnace in the attic?" And the last minute, the builder' got nervous and said, "I just... I think we need an extra furnace."

Yeah. Well, I mean, with, with a lot of older homes that are drafty, not necessarily comfortable, they dried in a pretty simple way. You have a super oversized furnace, or two in this case- Yeah ... um, and it, it bakes the assembly dry. It's not efficient. It's not really comfortable. You're, you're always just kinda fighting the elements. Sounds expensive.

Yeah. Right. It is. Well, that, that's what part of brings, uh, you know, passive house affordability, um, kind of into the, the mainstream, where, you know, you're, you're essentially taking some of that money that you'd put towards that second furnace or the oversized furnace, you're putting it into your wall assembly, and you're ending up with a house that's conserving the energy that it, is already in there. It's taking advantage of the free energy that the sun's trying to give you anyway, and, um, it's a more self-reliant dwelling. Um, so you don't need to spend, you know, 3, $4,000, you know, if you got an old house like me, on- Yeah ... uh, fuel oil or natural gas. Um, and, uh, and, and so it also makes it, you know, short-term affordable, more affordable but, you know, not, not necessarily as much as, you know, code. Not gonna lie to you. Um, but when we're talking about five, seven years down the line and you're not still paying 3 to $4,000 a, a year to heat that house, you know, it, it, it's got a pretty quick return on investment, especially with the way you've seen prices go. Yeah. Yeah, and we, you know, we've seen, uh, the inflation rates, uh, the past couple years really, uh, skyrocketing and, and, um, you know, energy, uh, prices are fluid, and there's some theory that we're starting to get tied to the, the global market, uh, which overseas you see, uh, therm prices on gas, uh, two, three, four times the price of what you have in the US.

So if that comes to fruition here, um, you're gonna wanna make those upfront investments, uh, um, not only on the building durability, but on the cost of operating the home, and that's, that's why it's so important to do that. Yeah. Some folks say, you know, "We're just gonna put solar panels all over the roof. Done. We've got everything that we need." It'd be better if you took a quarter of that money, put it into materials in your wall assembly, and now all of a sudden you only need two panels. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Those panels have a finite life too, don't forget. Right.

Yeah, I think they- Right ... uh, for the most part it, you know, they, they operate at 80% of their rated capacity after 20 years- Okay ... which, you know, still isn't bad, but- Yeah ... you know, at the same time I'd, I'd rather have a wall assembly that lasts 50 to 100 years. There you go. There you go. Absolutely.

Um, yeah, it's, uh, it, it's... We, we really... You know, one of the things that Corey and I are doing is really trying to get the word out because, uh, the average, uh, uh, consumer, customer, homeowner' doesn't really know this and, uh, you know, they get the, the contractor who comes into their home with, "I've got the shiny new thing," you know. Uh, "Oh, I got some solar panels. Let's put it on the roof."

Um, how old's the roof? So, you know- ... don't put it on a 15-year-old roof. I think that's a bad idea. Um, so w- uh, we don't wanna specialize in shiny things. We wanna think in terms of where's the home gonna be in

5, 10, as Corey said, 50 years down the road. Uh, we think in terms of that, um, now we're really building value. We're, uh, we're, we're not, we're not degrading, uh, or, uh, disintegrating the home. We're, we're making it last, so. What's the, uh, the typical application of 475 products with the projects that Wise

Home Energy does? Ours are a little, uh, e- we're a little m- more, um, uh, retrofit and not, uh, do a ton of existing. One of the projects we worked on, a gentleman really, um, had specific products in mind.

So, um, to, you know, uh, not to put words in Corey's mouth, but they're, you know, m- um, we use spray foam. Um, I think their, uh, corporate approach is maybe a little less spray foam. There's other products that can do the same thing and stop the airflow, which stops that vapor transfer. So we had a gentleman who, um, wanted those products and, um-

So it, um, it becomes out of our norm. We have to stop and, and, and take people and, and train them, which is, which is fine, but the, the demand has to be there. Um, but Corey's, you know, come out and helped us with that. Uh, recently we had a, a gentleman whose... Uh, I think we talked about last show.

He's, he's been there seven years. He's roof rotted out. It's, it's an unusual home 'cause it has, um, like four-foot slopes all around a hip roof. And so whoever did the first roof design, uh, butchered it, and he decided he was not gonna spend money. Uh, this roof would be his last roof, I think. And, and so he has gone down this, this, uh, I call it a rabbit hole,

'cause he's really, uh, gotten into, uh, managing humidity and monitoring it. And, um, he has gone to, uh, 475 Supply and, and purchased those materials. He wants to do it somewhat himself, wants to have us come out, but as I said, we're, you know, we're booked out so many months. Um, and it's hard to kinda time that together with a, maybe a do- DIY plan. But Corey's, uh, gotten involved to, you know, consult with, uh, the proper way to apply these materials.

And, uh, that's just an unbelievable resource in this day and age. I mean, I can barely get the cable company on the phone. So. Yeah. I, I think actually one of the, the first times that I emailed with you was a project over in, uh, Penfield.

And, um, yeah, it was a liquid applied, uh, air barrier similar to, you know, the Intello that I was describing before. And, uh, you know, you, you wanted me to stop by to, to make sure it was going on right. Your, you know, your, your team was doing an amazing job. Um, you know, this, this, uh, additional, um, you know, project came up, so I ultimately... Yeah, at the end of the day, I think we see things from a pretty similar perspective.

Yeah. We want the type of advice that we would want to receive. Right. Um, so whether that means talking someone out of using a specific product in a specific place, um, or considering a different approach, um, you know, it really comes down to the homeowner's needs, the project needs, and, and providing the, the type of support that we would hopefully wanna receive. Yeah. The cable company should be there the next day. Right. Um, so

I try- Cable company? Two words: Roku Stick. Right, right, right. So Corey, uh, wrapping up here, what's, uh, the contact information if anybody wants to get ahold of you or get to the company there? Yeah. You, you can send me an email to, you know, it's my direct email. It's cm, my initials, Corey

Murphy, um, @475, the numbers, .supply. No .com, uh, just .supply. Nice. And, um, yeah, go to our website, check out our free resources, whether it's downloading the e-books or, you know, reading up on any of our posts.

But, um, yeah, we'd love to help. It's great information there, for sure. And let's find out about Wise Home Energy. Sure. Uh, how to not hate your home. No, don't hate your home. Pick up the phone. Uh, you can call 585-270-5836, or reach us, uh, at, uh, wisehomeenergy.com.

All right. Well, thanks very much, guys, Corey and Jeff, for coming in here to the program, the Wise Home Energy Show on the Wysl stations. Don't forget, this program available as a podcast at wysl1040.com.

Thanks very much for listening. We'll see you next time on the Wise Home Energy Show.