Ryan Puckett on Heat Pumps, Education, and Growing With the Industry

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome. It is time once again for the Wise Home Energy Show on the WYSL stations. And we have the major domo in studio. Your energy. Yes, it's Jeff Flaherty. Hi.

Hey, Bob. Always, uh, great to be back here, and I'm always shocked you, uh, let me back in. I'm surprised you don't change the locks, but, uh, you let me in. I appreciate it. If, if, if you don't come, I have to do the show all by myself, and I just, you know- Well- ... I'm too lazy for that. Well, I'd like to outsource it. Maybe I should do that. I don't know. We'll have to talk after the show. No, no offshore announcers, please. Oh, that's right. That's right. We have to be able to understand them. We have to keep it local. Apparently, I have a, a Rochester accent. Whenever I travel, like, I'm told that I have a real hard Rochester accent.

Really? I don't know what that is. I mean, you, like a- It's a thing? "Oh, I, I got in a car accident. I had to go to the hospital." Exactly. "I hurt my back." Yeah. What's the name of our county? What do they call it? 'Cause I guess they call it Monroe. What is this? Mon- Is it Monroe?

Monro- Monroe? Monroe County. I get it very confused. It's actually a Great Lakes accent, I think. Is that what it is? Okay. Yeah. Then I think- The people in Chicago and Cleveland talk the same way. Nice. Nice. So what a beautiful... We're having a little spring here.

Yeah. Finally. Absolutely, and th- I, I'm sure that that presents new challenges as far as, you know, keeping your, your home comfortable and not moldy and not damp and- It, it does. Yeah. It does. Water, uh, infiltration in the basements, uh, can be a big problem.

Um, you know, we... It seems like, uh, kind of it's become a habit. Maybe we've got to come. u- up with a name for this. But, uh, we always, seem to come, and do the show and talk about a funny call or client that. we've had and, and, um, w- we have one that, uh, happened this, uh, past week, where this gentleman, a couple years ago, was emailing, uh, us, uh, because he had just gotten a new furnace and air conditioner installed, and his bathroom wasn't, uh, comfortable.

And, and so we're emailing, and we'll do some cursory, uh, investigation. I' said, "Why don't you send me over some pictures?" And, and, uh, he had really gone with a big name company and had paid the, the, the gold dollar amount for the, a package. And, and I said, "Why don't you go back to them? I mean, they're the one who installed the, the HVAC equipment." "Ah, there, there's nothing they, they can do with it." And- What? And, uh, so I really said, "You know, you need an assessment with a blower door. We, we' need to collect a lot of data." And, uh, sometimes as it happens, many emails go by, and it falls by the wayside. So, uh, lo and behold, uh, the gentleman has just, uh, emailed again, and, uh, in these past few years, he decided to get some new installations. Now, his home was about 20 years old, um, pretty good size home, 2,400 square foot, and he decided to get insulation in his attic and his basement. And, uh, he sent us the quote, and he wants it fixed. So that's always a bad sign. If you- He sent the, he sent the old quote? He, he... Yeah. He sent the, the actual contract that' he had and, and it's a, a company that' we're familiar with. Uh, they have kind of a blanket one-size-fits-all, uh, price. Uh, it's the same amount no matter what size house you got. And, uh, so what we find- That's interesting. Yeah. What we find is that maybe lacks, uh, on quality and, and lacks on performance and, and probably doesn't really? follow the code, uh, prescription of air sealing before you, insulate. It' says it on the contract, but when we dig through the insulation, we usually don't find that to be the case, and we almost know it's not gonna be the case because the price is so cheap that I don't know how they would possibly do it, uh, uh, for that because it's, it's not feasible. So, um, so unfortunately, uh, y- you know, it looks like he went that route and, and we have a, a big giant insulation vacuum that we use for jobs like that.

And ironically, that kind of costs usually about what' their insulation costs to remove it. So, um, we're not at that stage yet, but w- when you get insulation done, we view it? as really a 20-year measure or really a lifetime, uh, a, a measure. Because once it's done and done right, and a tree doesn't fall on your house, it should really last a lifetime. And so it's a bad sign if you're, uh, needing more insulation if you just had insulation last year. And, and so now he would like us to do an energy assessment. And, and so what is, what does that mean? Now, that remind...

That's kind of to me like having two major surgeries, uh, and then you don't feel good, and you're like, "You know, maybe I should get a physical and some blood tests. Maybe we should figure out what's going on here." So for us, we view that as the, we view that as a syntax error, uh, if that's still a relevant term, where we're doing things out of order.

Uh, we want to, we want to do that physical first. And, um, the only thing that's missing is he hasn't done his? windows. 'Cause if he would've done his windows, his insulation, and his HVAC, he would've completely done all the things that we would recommend in a certain order, uh, after we did our physical.

So, uh, usually these stories end in some heartache and some financial pain for people because they either have to take the financial hit and redo the stuff that was done wrong, or they have to take the, the physical pain of just living with it and knowing that, you know, maybe next time, um, they'll choose a better path. And

I, I always think. back to when I was young and, and dumb, and now I'm, now I'm not young anymore. I mean, I still have the other side- ... of the equation. Uh, that I, I had my first house, and my, my dishwasher went, and I didn't know. So I went out to the store, and there's three types of dishwashers, and you know, the one that had the lowest price was the most attractive to me. I was like, "It washes dishes. The name says it all." And then I, I put it in the house, and, um, it, it, it didn't actually wash the dishes. Uh-

... I, it paid for, you know, the... I had to pay for the water and the electric, but it was really just a rinser of, uh, dishes. So I found at that early stage that when we' look at value, quality, and premium, uh value Can serve its purpose, uh, but it sometimes doesn't really get you what you want. And, and, and really in home performance, value is, is gonna be a challenge a lot of times and cause some, some problems down the road, so. If it's really cheap, there's a reason. That's right.

That's right. So we, we're often asked at Wise Home Energy, you know, "How, how do you know, all this stuff? How do you get this, um, this knowledge base?" And so we. invest in a lot of training. Um, we' know that we currently don't know it all. We think we know a lot of it, but, we're gonna keep, um, advancing our education and knowledge in this, industry. And so recently we were down at the, uh, HP... What is it called? The NHPC, the National Home Performance Coalition.

Uh, changes around each year, uh, locations. We were in Minneapolis. And, uh, when we were at that show, uh, conference, uh, so there's a bunch of days with just different education modules and, uh, heat pumps and, um, moisture mitigation and insulation and, and, and how we improve the industry and our knowledge as we go, out and, and install these items. And there was... It was shocking, but there's only-- I only saw two other contractors in Western

New York at that conference. And, uh, hats off to those two, uh, contractors 'cause i-i-if you stop learning, uh, in any industry, I th- I think you're done. So, uh, what it was great for us, to see is some of the stuff that we've been doing for a few years that we' had picked up, this seems to be kinda starting to come the, um, accepted best practices. So it, it's exciting to know that we' sorta knew we were already on. the, right path. Uh, for example, ducted heat pumps. Many people, um, uh, their, their nouveau is heat pumps, so they're put- they're typically trying to put in the, ductless, the ones on' the walls, and- those have their pros and, they have their cons and, um, we don't, uh, w-we're not gonna go to those, uh, be our primary choice. We're gonna go to the ducted system first. And, in, this ducted system, tough to fit the old, ductwork, uh, and so there's tests that' we' do and, modifications that' we do that make that heat pump perform properly. So just because you put in a heat pump doesn't mean it's going to be efficient. It could drive your bills up if you haven't tightened up your home, if your ductwork doesn't match up well to this HVAC system. So very exciting to see that, uh, the things that we've been implementing for, uh, quite a few years now are becoming mainstream. But they're only mainstream to the people that go to those conferences.

So, uh, that, that's kinda shocking. I wish people would, uh, you know, spend some time and, keep educating because, uh, as more and more people choose contractors other than Wise Home Energy, they may be getting a lesser product that is not gonna save money. It's gonna cause comfort problems, and the third problem is it's gonna ruin the industry 'cause people are gonna think heat pumps don't work, and they do work when they're done right. So, uh, it's exciting. We spend a lot of time, uh, on education and, um, and that allows us to have people grow in the industry, in our company and continue to, to provide, um, these excellent services for our clients. So we just happen to have, uh, one of our folks from Wise Home Energy. There's 25 people, uh, currently at Wise Home Energy. And so in studio, we're lucky enough to have our general manager here, Ryan Puckett. Ryan has been with us, oh, I'm not good at math, but over 10 years.

It's been a while. And, uh, so welcome, Ryan. He's gonna tell us a little bit about his background in the company and how he got started.

So welcome, Ryan. Yeah, Jeff, thanks for having me on and, uh, thanks for keeping me employed at Wise Home Energy. Um, I'm a tw- 33-year-old that loves home performance and likes fixing buildings and, uh, wants to make the world a better place. So

I went to school for building science, um, particularly environmental science, sustainable building design, and business management, and needed a d- a career after coming out of school in, uh, 2008, 2009 and, um, found Wise Home Energy here in Rochester where

I grew up and started as an insulation, installer out of school. Um- So your first gig was Wise? My f- And you- My first official big boy gig was Wise Home Energy. Oh, that's so cool. Yep, and, um, have been able to grow with this company over the years, but started really at the bottom, um, which is a tough position. I give credit to our insulation installers every single day.

Uh, but I, I figured out how a house actually works by doing the work in these homes and really understanding and learning and getting the continued training that Wise Home Energy offered and was able to grow from an insulation installer to a project manager or energy auditor and then now into my role as a general manager of the company. Um, and I, I think really

I've -- I put in a lot of work, but I was offered the education and the training to, to get to where I am now. Um, and in these green energy fields, the industry really is gonna continue to grow. Um, and I, I'm here today I think mainly to just talk about the opportunities that exist in, in this industry for, you know, people my age or younger that are considering going to college or considering, uh, a career path going forward.

And I would just like to say that, that there is definitely opportunity in this field. It's only gonna continue to grow over the next 50 years. You know, your lifespan, um, this is gonna be something that we all have to pay attention to. And like Jeff was saying earlier, it's kind of a shame that, you know, business as usual continues to happen, um, because technology advances, people advance, uh, we figure out new ways of doing things, and at Wise Home Energy we're allowed to figure that out. So it's been, it's been a great career. For sure. What, what's, uh, what's the biggest change you've seen in the industry in your 10 years- Oh, wow ... your 10-year career thus far? Yeah. Uh, well, heat pumps really is, is the hot ticket item. Um, that's something that when I started with this company, I figured, let's insulate my home and make it' really energy efficient, and I installed a new high-efficiency furnace, uh, thanks to Jeff for a decent price on that. And, um, then the next year I realized what heat pumps could do, and realized I made a poor decision by installing a furnace when I could have gone with a high-efficiency inverter heat pump system, which

I now also have one of those in my home. But I didn't need to go through the first process of installing that gas furnace 'cause it's, a 25-year investment that you're gonna make. It's a, a, and, it's a big investment, probably one of the biggest you have in your homes. So, as a homeowner, you really wanna make the right, decision when you're, upgrading your heating or cooling system, and, have all the information and knowledge to make the proper decision for your home. So that really is, the thing that's taken off, I would say, um, over the past 10 years that I've been with Wise. Heat pumps are it, huh, Jeff? Ab- absolutely. It, it's been a shocking, uh, uh, you know, route for me and, um, we, uh, you know, I, I do believe in competition of the, of the two different fuel sources, but we, for 10 years, uh, 15 years, gas, uh, was considered to be much more efficient and cleaner than electric because the way we produced electric, uh, could fall to coal, uh, coal-fired plants. So, uh, we went to the, the gas appliances whenever we could.

Um, they're kind of low, um, low combustion, uh, compared to s- uh, propane and oil and not as dirty as those fuels. So, uh, it was kind of a shock for me and, and Ryan's been instrumental in, in, in kind of bringing that, uh, technology to Wise

Home Energy. So we really were, I would say, one of the first on' board in, in Western New York and, um, you' know, there's a learning curve. And, and so the, education, we can go to, these classes, but some of it is just spending your, your, your free time. There's always a cost to education, right? Somebody's gonna pay for that education, so Ryan and, I are probably cut from a similar mold where we're, we're investing some of our off hours in, in educating ourselves. And but he's a, a great example of that' education has allowed him to improve growing the company. He adds more value to the company because he is now the general manager and, a- and in line with the company's values of doing really good work, um, doing, doing work that is sustainable for the customer, sustainable for, uh, the environment. So it's, it's a fun process, um, but it's a fun process to see that, one is he went to school for it, so what's your, what's your opportunities? You can be a pencil pusher. Uh, so instead he, he had to start from the bottom, learned, um, the physical traits of all the different, uh, um, avenues that we have in the company, and then now he's kind of pencil pushing a lot. But he, he's able to talk to people and know exactly, um, the challenges that they face on a day-to-day basis, right? We're out in people's homes.

Uh, there's a long-standing joke, I always say that the homes are kind of easy to fix. It's the people and the po- their possessions- ... that kind of get in our way and can sidetrack us.

Uh, but it's just 'cause they're trying to throw you off your game. It's, we're like a plane flying to California, and all these things are just wind forces and temperature forces that are- Mm-hmm ... kind of guiding us off our path and we gotta- Headwinds. Yeah. Yeah. We gotta stay focused on, uh, what we're doing. So but it's neat to see his path, and then we get to show that path to other people. You can come in and you can get your position and stay there, or you can look to grow. If you grow your knowledge base and your value for our clients, you will grow the value for the company, and you can, you can grow with us. So it's, it's exciting to see, uh, but we, we certainly view Ryan as, um, you know, a model of what you can do in this industry. I could see why. Yeah.

Yeah. Wise Home Energy show on the WYSL stations with Jeff and Ryan here in studio. Now, you talked about education, you know, uh, after hours or whatever, when you're not in the midst of installing heat pumps or doing blower doors. And, uh,

I, I know like, for example, in the practice of law, we have CLA, which is the Continuing Legal Education. Mm-hmm. Is there an industry-wide group that provides this, uh, education and training and updates for you guys? Absolutely. So that, um, that conference that, uh, we just went to, um, that offers continuing education credits. So in order, to keep our certifications, we need to get, uh, I believe it's

30, uh, continuing education credits over three years. Um, and the downside is there's a little, uh, you can go online and do these webinars, and you can have your assistant watch these webinars. And, uh, to go out to these events and talk to like-minded people, um, you know, there's, there's a lot happening at the conference.

You step outside the conference, and there's some dining facilities. There's a lot of good conversations that happen there of, "What are you folks doing in California? What are you doing in Oregon?"

Uh, and we're able to just share with, with people that are the best in the industry. So, um, there is education, but some of it, uh, just similar to that dishwasher, there's value, quality, and premium education. So, um, the ones we are trying to focus on are certainly the quality and the premium education credits that we, we can access. So. Yeah, you want real information, not just checking a box saying, "Okay,

I did my education thing. I did it online." Mm-hmm. "I'm good." Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that's the same with any industry, Bob, too, with, you know, being a lawyer or an attorney. I'm sure it is. Right? You have the people that rise to the top, and you have the ones that are, you know Lowest on the list. Um, so, we'd like to really have, you know, take that education seriously, uh, when we participate in it, teach in it, um, and also learn from everybody else, and also have the mindset of having to be a, a lifelong learner, you know? Yeah. We wanna continue to grow. I, I gotta believe it's really satisfying when, you know, you've got somebody who's... You know, they've, they've tried the, the, uh, civilian approach of, "Oh, you know, I'm not, uh, I'm not, I'm not warm in my home, so what I'll do is I, I'll, I'll put in insulation." That doesn't work.

Uh, probably the furnace needs to be replaced. It's 10 years old. Replace the furnace, still have problems. And it's gotta be gratifying, I think, if you come to a frustrating, you know- Mm-hmm ... case history like that. Mm-hmm. And you fix the thing- Mm-hmm ... whatever it is, what the condition is, for the consumer. Mm-hmm. And they, you know, they're totally amazed and completely gratified. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, we, we definitely have those examples. Um, it's al- i- it's definitely gratifying to be able to solve an issue for somebody. Uh, it's also frustrating that they had to take that long path to get to us, right?

Um, it, it, it's investment, it's time, it's trial and error that a lot of our customers go through before we're able to come in and really diagnose what's going on and provide, I think, I think the best path forward, and that's really our whole goal here, is to figure out what the home needs, what our customers want, and then how to make that happen in the right stage. Um, you don't... We don't start any project...

And this is something that every, a lot of people have asked me, is, "Where do you start if you're looking to upgrade your heating system, or if you have an issue in your home? Do you call an HVAC contractor? Do you call a roofer? Do you call somebody that's doing windows?"

And I think the home performance path is the best option because we can come in and test things and provide you with actual data and solutions and a recommendation for which direction you'd wanna go. And every home is different, and every homeowner is different, but with that scientific knowledge of someone's home and how it's operating, they can make a better informed path to go forward. Um, so that's really what I think home performance is setting itself apart in the contracting world with data. We're not just selling a thing.

Yeah. The, the, uh, to that point, the, the data that we're looking at, we talk about that blower door test so often, Bob, I mean, that it's almost seems like a little bit of a, a fixation I have, but it is. Because when we get a call and somebody has a problem, and then they say...

I said, "Well, y- y- you need a blower door test." "Yeah, I think I had one of those." "Oh, oh, what, what was the result of it?" "Yeah, they said it was pretty good." Well, pretty good is- You know, I had a burger that was pretty good, but it wasn't a steak.

Um, and it's not really a, you know, it's not really a metric. Pretty good isn't really a metric. So I'm always thinking, do you have a picture of that blower door? That's g- Like, did they just write down a number? I mean, I can get a Post-It Note, and I could write down 4,000 different numbers and hand them out all over the, you know, country.

To me, that's not, that's not really a blower door. The picture of the blower door, the picture of the manometer that ch- tells you what the leakage is. We geotag it to the home. So we're providing really irrefutable evidence of what that home is currently sitting in that condition. And so I recently had a, a customer call up that we did about eight years ago, and, um, you know, I would tell you that, you know, we're considerably better than we were eight years ago, but I looked at this job, and I was r- we d- I liked what we did. But they had n- you know, uh, suddenly kinda said, "Well, we got a little moisture in our attic." They had, they had remodeled their bath- bathroom, and they had put in a bath fan in the, in the... Person didn't seal the bath fan and didn't duct the bath fan properly, and all the moisture was leaking up into the space. They also, uh, took the hatch that we had kinda sealed and, and properly installed and, and when they went up there to get in there, they didn't really reinstall that. So they've altered the work we did. The other thing they did was we had, um, installed some soffit vents, which was, would have a wood, um, uh, was a wood soffit, and they decided to, um, add some, um, uh, kind of vinyl trim in, in... So then they put vented vinyl soffit over it. So now that restricts the flow. Mm. So they kinda altered our system, and so we're gonna work with them and, and do some minor repairs. But to me, like, uh, you know, this stuff works. Our designs, uh, you know, usually work. Knock on wood, some things can go, uh, s- you know, off the s- off the rails a little bit, but it works, and as long as you don't mess with it or you, you give us a call and consult with us before you do it, you should be in good shape. And what happened with this bath fan, we haven't really finished it up, but they altered the flow.

They didn't connect it properly, and what I hear is water in there. Like, it's, it's got- Yikes ... it's g- you know, it's not doing what it was intentionally doing when we installed it and vented it out of the home. No, water, water in a bath fan,

I don't think- It's not good ... no. You could- But it's common. Very common. Really. We, we see it all the time. Yeah. Yep. Amazing. I, I think it's important. Uh, you know, Jeff has used the term system, uh, repeatedly here on the show, and that's important. The, the soffit vents, the, the way that the bath fan was vented, all... This is all part of a whole that is designed to work.

Yes. You know, and if, uh, you know, the in your rowboat, you have a bottom system, and anything that allows the water to come in kinda defeats the system- Right ... in the rowboat. Right. Absolutely. Yeah, it really, really is a system.

Um, I just, you know, I think of the, the cars and, and tires and, uh, shocks and struts and, uh, uh, braking, uh, components and, um, to just, you know, swap, swap out one of those parts, if there's not a, a good thought on what that part was, and then the test afterwards, go take it for a drive. Um, and that's kinda the, the same, you know, boat we're in, is we, we wanna look at the whole system.

We can avoid some pitfalls, um, when we're, um- You know, when we're examining everything, uh, and, and, and looking at everything, and, and many people just want us to run us to the problem and run us upstairs, "Come look at my attic." And well, that can have... You know, the mold on your ceiling could be contributed to your runaway humidifier. There, there, there can be a lot of things that affect, um, the home and, and we're only there for three hours, uh, you know, two or three hours for a visit.

We're only there at a very short window. We need to capture the data that we can at that moment, uh, and, and extrapolate that and, and, and see how the pieces and parts go together, and we're very good at doing that. It, it's interesting to me. We've talked about boats, cars and, and now houses, which is what we're working on. Mm-hmm. But houses are probably built, um, the least controlled out of those three things. Boats and cars are built in a factory. Uh, there's a lot of quality assurance inspections that are going on. Houses are thrown up. Uh, that's another thing I've learned over the past 10 years.

This is... It's construction. It's messy. Uh, and really you need to tune and tweak the systems in the home to all work together to make it comfortable, uh, comf- you know, comfortable and quality and beneficial to live in a home, uh, for you and your family. And the home's built to a price point, too.

It is. Absolutely. Just like, just like the car or the boat. Yeah. I mean, you can buy... What, what does one cost? All depends on the quality. Yeah. Right. Lowest bid. That's what won that job, right? So.

Could be. Yeah. I wouldn't want a house like that, but a lot of people build them that way. Yeah. Absolutely. So if you're concerned about your home, uh, certainly give Wise Home Energy a call, f- uh, 585-270-5836.

We access all the NYSERDA grants. Everyone is eligible for a no-cost assessment. We add on, um, a blower door typically if the house is not a McMansion or it doesn't need advanced diagnostics. We're now adding that blower door on, uh, for no cost. So it's, um... We're not gonna provide you a bunch of blower door reports, but we're gonna show you that number, and you can feel that air leaking through your home. And when you're out at work, that air is leaking out of your home. Uh, if you go on vacation, that air is leaking out of your home. So that is one of the main things that we focus on because we have to know, um, how much air is leaking out of that home so we can look at the other issues in the home. There you go. Before you, uh, do the expensive frustrating route, which is spending a lot of money on insulation, windows,

HVAC equipment, start at the beginning and call Wise Home Energy. 585-270-5836. Don't be cold in your home. Thanks. Pick up the phone. Thanks,

Jeff Flaherty. Ryan, good to talk to you. Great to meet you, Bob. All right. See you next time on the Wise Home Energy Show.